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  #1  
Old 09/12/2007, 12:07 PM
BBoley24 BBoley24 is offline
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LFS... Misconception? or bad REP?

This is in no way trying to bash or prohibit people from buying or going to Local Fish Stores. These people devote their lives to owning and operating these stores and I respect them for it. Without them we wouldn't have the community that we have today. This thread is not intended for purposeful slander but for experience only. If you wish to share an experience... please post broad locations and not exact stores.



Ok now I never posted anything when this happened but I always walk into everywhere I go with an open opinion and try to learn things. But I find myself going into an LFS and discovering that these people are only educated on keeping things alive and not on science or up to date technology. Nor do they like to read the labels on hardware or take another step and research for better efficiency.

I went to an excellent ORA certified LFS in North Orlando. Great setup, great representation... great livestock the whole shwabang. I checked out the plumbing on a beautiful 210g reef setup they had as a display. Obviously these people knew what was going on because it looks as good or better than my tank (available funds im claiming!). And he is running 2 mag 12s for close loops. All fine and dandy... but when I look at the output diameter of the pvc he is using it was 3/4". The exact same size as the outlet. Thinking to myself... why would he not at least go a size or 2 bigger or if not go what is recommended for full efficiency double the output to 1 1/2"? So I ask out of curiosity. He tells me that it was the outlet size so why should he bother going any bigger. He is the owner of the store so I know he cant be a total shmuck. Smart guy and he knows his stuff but he didn't know a simple principle and he runs an LFS?

I know this isnt a big deal to alot of you. And im probably just anal... but this isnt the first time ive walked out of an LFS thinking to myself "why can't I run one of these places?". And then reality hits me instantly that I had taken a different course in my life to where I couldnt afford it and devote time yadayadayada.... Does this not bother some of you?

Please share your LFS stories of frustration... id love to hear them.




(I wrote the preclause because RC is notorious for deleting any of my more liberal threads.)
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  #2  
Old 09/12/2007, 12:18 PM
RichConley RichConley is offline
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Quote:
Obviously these people knew what was going on because it looks as good or better than my tank
Thats a huge assumption, and one I've found to be generally false.
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  #3  
Old 09/12/2007, 12:56 PM
BBoley24 BBoley24 is offline
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Yeah well I figured if I had the coral and the fish that they had in that tank ... that mine would look as good or better... but these people have some resources to get some stuff I cant even touch.
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  #4  
Old 09/12/2007, 12:57 PM
Serioussnaps Serioussnaps is offline
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Ill bash......LFS are good for buying fish and thats it. You get to see them and don't have to worry about them dying in shipping.

LFS are horrible for buying corals...well because they generally have no clue how to keep them and their selection generally sucks.

LFS are horrible to buy dry goods because they mark them up 500% and then tell you they are the best on the market when in reality they are CRAP.

I could go on and on, but if I do somone might figure out which LFS's I am speaking of.

FWIW, I am in NC so one can't expect much.
  #5  
Old 09/12/2007, 02:14 PM
TitusvileSurfer TitusvileSurfer is offline
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I'm hoping to open a LFS some day after college, so please point out all the problems. Maybe I can 'build a better mouse trap'?
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  #6  
Old 09/12/2007, 04:22 PM
BBoley24 BBoley24 is offline
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Just being on here and reading has already made you more credible than most.... one of the LFS in Lubbock Texas that I used to frequent thought that the local fish club was dorky and useless. The other LFS owner participated only in the local club not RC but only for sales not research posts or conversation posts.

I personally think that RC and many other boards should be the first place the owners should look... even before the vendors!!! MACNA gives great showings and great products but in the end its what the customers want and create topics. If we say that we dont like them selling Marc Weiss products because they are ripoffs and we go into a store and come to find that he is pushing them like its gods gift to reefing... then I know he is not informed and is only going on sales or vendors speech. Like I had written before about danner magdrive pumps diameter outlets being doubled... the man had no clue what i was talking about.... IT SAYS IT IN THE MANUAL!!!! Let alone researching what you are putting on your tank. Was he doing anything wrong.... no... which is saying alot more than some other LFS can... but he was still not misinformed but ignorant on the output on those specific pumps.... even a bottleneck at the bulkhead would still work better.... just by reading a little... even if he were aware of what he had done and didnt want to go through the trouble... he just flat out didnt know what i was talking about. THat scares me.
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  #7  
Old 09/12/2007, 05:19 PM
Neezy Neezy is offline
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Ive worked at the same LFS since highschool and every summer im home from college... my boss doesnt let me touch anything until ive read up on all the new stuff and refamiliarized myself with the old. We keep a huge selection of fish, inverts, corals and LR. We havent lost a coral in years and rarely if ever lose fish, unless DOA. Plus our prices are nearly half of the competitors around us. Every customer of ours has always been impressed with our stock, knowledge, and CS.

I know theres a lot of S****Y LFS out there but try not to put all of us in the same category, its those of us that are actually trying to have fun and help everyone in this hobby rather than snake their wallets
  #8  
Old 09/12/2007, 05:31 PM
edwing206 edwing206 is offline
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My LFS is one of the best I've been to. They never have dying corals, and only on rare occasions do they have sick or dying fish. It happens. But there are some stores near me that have algae on the glass and always have dying fish.
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  #9  
Old 09/12/2007, 05:38 PM
Lagger Lagger is offline
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Re: LFS... Misconception? or bad REP?

bad REP? What are you talking about?!? For not using the "technically" correct outlet diameter for a mag drive for optimum flow? And you post a 3 paragraph essay butsing this guys chops?

Quote:
Originally posted by BBoley24
He tells me that it was the outlet size so why should he bother going any bigger.
Sounds fine by me
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  #10  
Old 09/12/2007, 05:39 PM
J. Montgomery J. Montgomery is offline
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Richmond, VA has some stellar LFS! Especially for corals.
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  #11  
Old 09/12/2007, 05:47 PM
Pmolan Pmolan is offline
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A few in NJ. Id walk in and see the 4 high school kids hanging out at the front counter. Fine, just taking a break. Then you walk into the back and the place looks like hell. Algae all over the tanks, and dead fish that look as if they have been there from the night before. Then there are some that I go into that no matter what time I go there, at least 1 person is cleaning the tanks. They are the same ones that do the dead fish walks every hour to keep the displays looking nice.
  #12  
Old 09/12/2007, 06:32 PM
BBoley24 BBoley24 is offline
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Yes... they get a bad reputation because of the rips and scams that they pull across america.... im sure its the same with all companies thats a hit or miss ordeal... All I have to do is walk in... find the owner or manager... strike a conversation and I can instantly find out if the man knows what he is talking about... in the end if the owner has healthy livestock im going to buy the fish or coral... but none the less you can't tell me that the majority of LFS are as good as Neezy's and edwings's stores. I have been all over the country and I try to find the closest LFS in the area just to see what they have. Some dont even have people that will talk to you but only get what you need.... some dont even speak english ie Houston LFS (city pets)... I am not questioning quality of product because if you know anything about marine life you can tell if the store takes care of their stuff... but knowledge of the owner and managers.... low level staff i understand are only there to serve... I usually dont talk much with them unless they strike up conversation... Maeybe I am trying to hear what I want to hear ie when someone tells me that my naso will grow to be 2 feet long in a few years and then i cringe... or that I shouldnt have a refugium in my sump because it turns all of the organisms into soup before it gets into my display... maybe these are things that i dont want to hear because of convience... but when I open a stand to the display tank and see bioballs... I strike up a conversation with the manager on duty and they will try and convince me of their ability to filter the water. Or trying to convince me that DSBs are the devil because they trap dead and stagnant organisms. Its not that theyre wrong... its just that I wish they were up with the technology that the public reefers want and use. Dont push Sea Clones... Try and educate about dosing rather than handing over some Marc Weis sugar water... things of the sort. Yes I am over generalizing and rambling but im trying to provoke response from the general community...
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  #13  
Old 09/12/2007, 06:34 PM
OnoIgotICH OnoIgotICH is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Serioussnaps
Ill bash......LFS are good for buying fish and thats it. You get to see them and don't have to worry about them dying in shipping.

LFS are horrible for buying corals...well because they generally have no clue how to keep them and their selection generally sucks.

LFS are horrible to buy dry goods because they mark them up 500% and then tell you they are the best on the market when in reality they are CRAP.

I could go on and on, but if I do somone might figure out which LFS's I am speaking of.

FWIW, I am in NC so one can't expect much.
In North Carolina there is actually some pretty good LFS.

One LFS has very cheap prices good looking fish, not alot of dry goods but they arent marked up, their corals are alright, most of them look healthy and then there is ones that are decrypted and dead already. he is knowledgeable that is all i can ask for for an LFS.


Look here tho.

Not all LFS's are the same, Some LFS's have their weak points and their strong points. You cant expect all LFS's to perfect, you go through a 55 gallon tank, and they have to go through thousands of gallons, fish after fish, coral after coral. Its a tough job they actually have to do to ensure their fish are not sick (But I guess not all LFS's do this) For you cannot bash them just over a 3/4 PVC piping. Are you saying you wont even go there anymore, because he uses a 3/4 pvc piping?
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  #14  
Old 09/12/2007, 06:38 PM
BBoley24 BBoley24 is offline
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Ok... let me clarify... the 3/4" piping was a generalization... I could honestly care less wether or not the guy uses spa flex over hard pvc or even if he uses coralife plug timers.... nor am I speaking of the quality of their product (if its crap then he really doesnt know whats going on to begin with). Im talking about the overall knowledge base of the owner and managers.
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  #15  
Old 09/12/2007, 06:44 PM
OnoIgotICH OnoIgotICH is offline
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If its like that its okay but I mean sometimes when they are creating the place things come up such as they already pvcing cemented the pipes to the pump and cant fix it or else they drop money on the pump and pipes

i know what you mean now by the knowledge of the staff but i wouldnt stop going there just over that.
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  #16  
Old 09/12/2007, 06:52 PM
BBoley24 BBoley24 is offline
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of course not... like I said... if they were just lazy or couldnt afford to replace the piping thats one thing... but telling me that its the way the outlet is so thats the way hes going to plumb it is strictly knowledge... but thats just one instance that I over analyzed at the time... This has been stirring ever since I got conned as a newb and continued trying to get sold throughout the years. I try not to go in with a bad attitude because there were a dozen stores in Houston that I visited in my short stay... and 4 or 5 of which were very I MEAN VERY respectable... but the majority just dont have the knowledge or energy to do some reading... now that wont stop me from going to their stores... not at all... but I sure wont pick their brains... tahts what RC is for... I dont really get to talk to many people that run reefs and thats my only source of reef talk... so I try and convince myself that these people have at minimum the amatuer knowledge that I have in the hobby and more. When I do meet up with someone with experience ill pick their brains until I get every last peice of info out of them inorder to expand my knowledge base.
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  #17  
Old 09/12/2007, 07:19 PM
Mykel Obvious Mykel Obvious is offline
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I'll stay outta the OP discussion on whether the PVC ID was for the best or not... I'm not a plumber

However, I'll indulge in a bit of LFS griping... (I'll leave out the big box stores as well, they just don't count IMO)

I currently have ONE LFS... I lost the best place in town due to a chiropractor offering him way more than he paid for the building... that stinks on multiple levels, because he was around my age and always stayed up on the latest fish and reef info... if I asked him about something and he didn't have an answer, by the next time I went to see him (often every few days at that time) he'd have at least a general understanding of whatever we'd been discussing... I really do miss him

The other LFS has been here for about 20 years now... the owner has a degree in marine biology, but his info is often 20ish years out of date... he's given up on caring about the things under his care and I often see the dead floating in the tank from the night before... if I ask something, he either doesn't know, says what ever will make him the most money, or gives out info from the Dark Ages... he has about 15 tanks dedicated to salt (each about 20 gallons) and the all look bad, always... hair algae on everything and critters that shouldn't share a tank, etc. He also will not hesitate to sell a totally white anemone or sick fish... like I said, he's given up and just wants to sell things...

Enter the NLFS (Non-Local)... I found a WONDERFUL store about 1 1/2 hours north of me in Tennessee (The Aquatic Critter for you locals) I will be buying much of my livestock from them !! They have a diverse setup of everything imaginable... fresh, salt, pond, reef, planted tanks and reptiles I really wish they were closer, cause I'd go there almost every day... it's like going to a tiny Sea World LOL... The have a nice tiered system to display corals for sale, and are using a large Zero Edge aquarium with 2x 4' Solaris for their frag tank... not all of the employees know about all types of fish, but then again every time I've been there, they have 10-20 customers for all types of fish, so you need a mix of knowledge (and they have many employees as well)... yes, they have some bio-ball systems, and everything in between, but if you look at Paul B's Tank you will see that you CAN keep a reef long term even with a UGF (so it's not a tank full of Acro's... it's still a reef tank)... if you spend time on your tank, and know what to watch out for, and what it will keep alive, then what's to stop you??

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking too it!!



Thanks for your time,
mikey
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  #18  
Old 09/12/2007, 07:23 PM
RHagemann RHagemann is offline
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LFS's Misconception

My job requires quite a bit of traveling so when I'm out of town, I try to visit LFS's when I have the time. Personally, I don't think the problem is geographic. A city with more LFS's than usual has equal likelihood of having a more "bad" stores as it does "good" stores.

I talk to many owners all over the country and by far, their biggest problem is staffing their stores. Consumers want low prices. Most true hobbyists are probably willing to pay a little more to support their LFS of choice in trade for good service, good selections, healthy livestock, and reasonable prices. In this age of on-line shopping, most dry goods & equipment is bought via the internet due to cost. That means your LFS's sales are primarly based on livestock.

The local LFS's not only have to be competitive with their LFS competitors, but now their suppose to be competitive with on-line retailers or they lose even more business. Therin lies the problem.

Consumers in-general attract to stores with an educated staff in their stores and low, competitive prices (as read in this thread and all over RC). Not too many educated aquarists want to work for minimum wage to $7 even $8 per hour right? The store owners labor costs are part of their overhead, which (usually as a percentage) is added on to their livestock, dry goods, and equipment costs from suppliers.

The LFS owners costs (from suppliers) for these items generally goes down based on volume. i.e, if they only buy 3 skimmers a month, they're not going to get a huge cost break from their supplier. The higher cost they pay (based on the volume of their store) + their overhead + any profit = the price they charge and it's almost always more than the on-line stores sell the same items for. The difference is, the on-line retailer is buying and selling 200 skimmers a month so they get them for about 30-40% cheaper then the 3 per month LFS.

Just my 2C. Good discussion topic.

Cheers
  #19  
Old 09/12/2007, 07:29 PM
cashman95 cashman95 is offline
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Here in S.C. there are your LFS's and then there are your Speacilty Fish Store's. Guess that says it all. We have a couple to choose from and generally speaking if one store doesnt fit your needs on an item or question, then one of the others probably will. Most of them have GREAT quality fish and corals, and usually have very knowledgable people working in them!

Everyone has a different approach to keeping a system up and running, or for that matter plumbing it. To find someone that is SUPER knowledgeable and up to date in every aspect of the salt world would mean they must keep their head burried in RC all day everyday....in turn neglecting their store.

You must take into consideration that the mark-up on their products keeps the doors open, as they have to take fish loss, power consumption, rent, etc. into account! Internet stores usually have a warehouse without the store front up keep.

I dont mind paying a little more for an item that is right there in front of me. Usually by the time you pay shipping on an online order and then wait 3-5 days for it, you could have just bought it locally and spent a couple of bucks more for instant gratification, But sometime they just dont have what your looking for...Right?

The only problem I have with LFS's is the problem they have with you not being loyal to them for EVERY ITEM! I have created close relationships with my Local stores, and can sometimes hear the animosity in their voice when they find out you've been somewhere else for an item. I dont think its a good idea for a "salter" to only go to ONE LFS. You sell yourself short on knowlegde " as we have all learned from this thread" and availability! Just my two cents!

Overall, here in S.C. we have it good!!!!
  #20  
Old 09/12/2007, 07:33 PM
wintercool97 wintercool97 is offline
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Our LFS is one of the worst. Like everyone said, algae allover everything can't hardly see into the glass. Lights are so dull they have probably never been cleaned or changed the bulbs. Its like walking in to a cave in the SW department! They keep their fish, even an 4 inch Triggerfish last week,in small containers like 6"x6" boxes all plumed into one large sump.

Their corals SUCK all brown no colors and almost dead and they start at 50.00! And don't even get me started on the dry goods. 500% mark up isn't that far off.

Sadly for me they are the only store in my area. There are several good ones about 200 miles away. So anytime we make a trip to Albuquerque we hit the good stores! It is so nice to talk to someone who knows something when your there, and decent prices on coral and life stock.

You know when I started my nano 3 years ago they weren't as popular as they are now but no where near a new concept. I went into my LFS to get rock that they keep in the dark. They where like nano? they didn't even know the word! Now they push it all over the store. If it where my job I would try to be on top of what's going on. You sell more when you have successful customers!

If I had the money I would start one in my area. Although we have such small towns here I'm not sure it could be supported. It would be fun even though, I think!
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  #21  
Old 09/12/2007, 07:37 PM
dirtyclownfish dirtyclownfish is offline
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The manager at my LFS left the sump refill tap on all night and killed every fish in the system except for the the red scorpionfish and three damsels. The entire system was totally wiped out including a Powder Blue, a Hippo, the tank of Perculas, the Lionfish and the Wrasses, just to name a few. There was an entire order of fish in a trashbag! The specific gravity was 0 and the temperature was 50. Today, I was fortunate to find that a Leather and a Cup Coral were in a seperate tank at the time and I took them home promptly.
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Old 09/12/2007, 09:15 PM
BBoley24 BBoley24 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by wintercool97
Our LFS is one of the worst. Like everyone said, algae allover everything can't hardly see into the glass. Lights are so dull they have probably never been cleaned or changed the bulbs. Its like walking in to a cave in the SW department! They keep their fish, even an 4 inch Triggerfish last week,in small containers like 6"x6" boxes all plumed into one large sump.

Their corals SUCK all brown no colors and almost dead and they start at 50.00! And don't even get me started on the dry goods. 500% mark up isn't that far off.

Sadly for me they are the only store in my area. There are several good ones about 200 miles away. So anytime we make a trip to Albuquerque we hit the good stores! It is so nice to talk to someone who knows something when your there, and decent prices on coral and life stock.

You know when I started my nano 3 years ago they weren't as popular as they are now but no where near a new concept. I went into my LFS to get rock that they keep in the dark. They where like nano? they didn't even know the word! Now they push it all over the store. If it where my job I would try to be on top of what's going on. You sell more when you have successful customers!

If I had the money I would start one in my area. Although we have such small towns here I'm not sure it could be supported. It would be fun even though, I think!

Ok wow. This guy gets exactly what im talking about... not that im only trying to hear one side of the story... you all are trailing off into items in the stores and how overpriced they are... overhead costs and competition in pricing... im talking about having to travel 200 miles to get someone who knows what they are talking about and is up to date with the new technologies... someone who DOES go home every night and researches what his customers like and are into... new trends and "nano" technology... Its hard to find stores right now that are into solaris... you can always pinpoint the best stores when they have the all T5 setups and the HQIs and the Solaris... all in one store... because you know they probably went to Macna... or went to a conference with their vendors to check up on new things... my father worked for exxonmobil until he was 59 learning new technology in the IT department... he was almost 60 learning new technology to teach to the young interns so they could apply it. That is what im talking about.
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  #23  
Old 09/12/2007, 09:50 PM
AegirOfHlesey AegirOfHlesey is offline
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Hey, people....if you don't like your LFS, don't shop there! There is no reason to get on here and cry about it. What is that going to accomplish?
  #24  
Old 09/12/2007, 10:04 PM
TitusvileSurfer TitusvileSurfer is offline
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Well if it goes through, I'm still about 4-5 years from opening up a store. Hopefully by then I will be able to say I know what I am talking about! As of now I'm just a newbie, but steadily progressing!
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  #25  
Old 09/12/2007, 10:11 PM
burton14e7 burton14e7 is offline
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Just having a conversation with our reef community, not trying to accomplish anything. We have a mixed bag of LFS's here in so cali. Some serious nice ones that will know all the scientific names and the ones where you walk inside and know never to go back.
 

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