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#26
04/03/2006, 09:27 PM
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#27
04/03/2006, 10:12 PM
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#28
04/03/2006, 10:22 PM
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Thats great! As long as people realize that simply keeping an aquarium makes the aquarium keep at least part of the general problem I feel good. I think people should do what they can, while at the same time realizing that even the best efforts have some negative impact that shouldn't be ignored
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The reefer formally known as Lefty Ink is the way; the way is ink. |
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#29
04/04/2006, 03:02 PM
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Ah yes it does impact it, but so does just about everything else we do! Watch some TV use your Microwave, they all use electricity, Reef Tanks probably use about .00000000000000000000000000000001% of all the power consumed world wide. That same percentage is how much reef Tanks destroy reefs via energy use versus everything else that uses power. And yes it's a trivial number.
QUOTE]Originally posted by Lefty How do you feel that this it was over the edge? Am I talking with fellow reefers or regular Joe Blows? Are you saying that the resources used to create the electricity that we pour into our home reefs doesn't have impact on wild reefs? [/QUOTE] |
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#30
04/04/2006, 03:42 PM
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I don't believe it is a trivial number because of how relates to the infrastructure needed to get those reeftanks their power.
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The reefer formally known as Lefty Ink is the way; the way is ink. |
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#31
04/04/2006, 05:20 PM
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All this *****ing about whether the use of electricity for our reef tanks is impacting the reefs via your electrically operated computer is impacting the reefs! Quick, turnoff your computers. Wait, better yet, move to a tropical island with your corals and use the natural sunlight and saltwater, (circulated by hamsters turning an archimedes screw). But wait, just living on that island negatively impacts the reef. Doh! I think the only answer is for all us environementally concious consumers to kill ourselves, sacrificed to the reefs we love, and let the 'clean up crews' have at. However, we have to go one at a time, or else there will just be a huge algae bloom that will negatively impact the reef.
Please, can we have some realistic discussion here? At the level of human population on the planet, we are already beyond living in ecological balance. Period. The best we can do is the best of the worst options for us. I don't think there is any educated person out there that is going to try to argue that the reefs are going to get any healthier in the future, and you'd be damned pressed to find anyone that will even argue that they will maintain as they are. They are going downhill, how fast we choose to let them slide is (hopefully still ) up to us. Clearly, choosing just what the most viable of the best of the worst options is a tricky subjective subject. And now let the debate continue... Oh yeah, can I also point out that without the reef hobby to unite us, none of us would be in this forum exchanging viewpoints about how best to save the reefs... |
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#32
04/04/2006, 05:25 PM
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The electricity point I agree, this is so trivial a point thats it's not worth discussing further.
I would disagree that the reefs cannot be saved, it's all just a matter of whats important to people. I have seen a really nice improvement in the reefs here because they made the area into a marine Park, so now boats don't anchor and fishermen dont use the area and the waste from large hotels is monitored better. If people decide to halt doing the things that have created global warming the reefs could make a major recovery in 1 or 2 decades. This is not an impossible task, places like Sweden, Dennmark, Germany , Brazil and many other parts of the world are already doing it. Last edited by RobbyG; 04/04/2006 at 05:36 PM. |
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#33
04/04/2006, 07:12 PM
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I agree also that indeed SOME reefs will show improvements in the future due to better management. However, when leveraged against ALL the reefs in the world, I don't think that we are going to see overall movement in the right direction. Heck, down here in the Keys, there are probably more laws and protected zones than just about any reef on Earth. But the reefs here aren't doing that great. I wouldn't say that they are sliding terribly fast either though. The biggest culprits are probably from the runoff of fertilizers from the sugar plantations in the Everglades, and then just simple human activity like boating, fishing, diving, and having a high population density 5 miles from the reef. Finding acropora is a mission these days, although the few colonies that I see look like they are doing well, so we can hope that in 10-20 years we will have staghorn and elkhorn thickets like there used to be back in the 70s.
As for reversing climate change, I'd say that at best, to reverse the trend of global warming we are looking at a nearly impossible wall of deaf ears. The US won't approve the Kyoto protocol, and even that wouldn't be enough to do much, but it certainly is a great first step. I just read today that the EPA is looking to open up a loophole to allow the biggest polluters to pollute even more. (See here) That is our "Environmental PROTECTION agency" mind you...If "developed" nations like the USA won't set an expample, then how can we expect developing nations to follow along? Developed nations, such as ourselves, are where we are today because we did our developing in another era, when there was no thought given to pollution. Now of course we want to hold everyone else to higher Most developing nations, especially tropical island nations simply burn their trash in the backyard (or often in the street). I recall from my experience in the Solomon Islands, the sight of batteries laying all over the place as the smell of trash hung in the air. Without electricity, they use these disposable batteries (it's pretty tough to use rechargeable batteries without electricity), and they just throw them out into their gardens or street or literally where ever. It is easy for us to point blame at this ignorance, but shoot, I don't have a clue what happens to all my trash once the garbage truck takes it away. Another vein in the aging body of humanity... |
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#34
04/04/2006, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Intentionally pushing anothers arguments to extremes that no one is arguing belittles the entire discussion. Quote:
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__________________
The reefer formally known as Lefty Ink is the way; the way is ink. |
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#35
04/04/2006, 09:11 PM
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I was being satirical...
As for what we should do? Anything that each and every one of us feels is what we need to do to save the reefs, is what we should each do. If that means for some, running their metal halides on solar power, then that's what you have to do. Or if it simply means buying aquacultured specimens, then do that. As this discussion exposes, everyone has different ideas of what needs to be done. But thankfully we all agree that the reefs are worthy of being saved. For my part, I will be interning with the Marine Aquarium Council for 6 months in Bali starting in July. I will be helping to bring the local coral aquaculture efforts up to a MAC certifiable level. This will entail showing them sustainable collection of broodstock, correct species selection, proper attachement, what morphologies people pay the most for, etc. I know, it is a tough job, but someone has to do it. I don't advocate raping the reefs like Lefty is insinuating. I do think it would be great if some magic pile of money fell out of the sky which could be used to fund a live coral genetic bank, that would ensure that all species and morphologies of coral are preserved should we ever lose the reefs. Until that time, we the reef hobbyists are making up the collective network of that genetic bank. And yes, wild collection, if done responsibly should continue. |
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#36
04/04/2006, 09:19 PM
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I think this just illustrates that that kind of belittling satire can really damage this kind of discussion.
__________________
The reefer formally known as Lefty Ink is the way; the way is ink. |
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#37
04/04/2006, 10:45 PM
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yeah, these emoticons can be confusing. As you can see I'm new around here. To be completely honest, I'm mostly looking for a quick way to get 50 posts without having to go into the Lounge. I'm not trying to BS anyone though, I think I have an interesting perspective as a marine biologidt/marine life collector that I can bring to the table. But until I get 50 posts, I can't use the trading forum to trade anyone my sweet ricordeas and corallimorphs...
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#38
04/05/2006, 12:10 AM
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Personally I feel the wild caught aquatic fish and invert industry has had a very minimal direct impact on stocks of these animals. Over fishing for the food industry, off shore pollution and run off from agriculture, ozone layer depletion, improper waist disposal chemical and organic, dredging and dynamiting, oil spills and pollution from sea going vessels and off shore rigs, increased population and the tourism industry near reefs. Have way more negative impact that our hobby.
For every Copperband Butterfly or Tang caught for the hobby 1000’s, die as trash fish caught in trawlers nets. For every piece of coral taken for our hobby 1000’s go to the ornamental trade as decorations or destroyed to dredging from construction or die from pollution. Our industry is a drop in the bucket compared to massive destruction caused by every other environmental impacting activity that man has devised. Do’s that mean we should take the high road attitude towards our hobby because we have a lower impact? Of course not! Like any other animal we would care for we should strive to do our utmost to home our pets in the most carrying and compassionate manner possible. By continuing our hobby we should also be striving to understand what these animals need to not only survive but to thrive. I believe we have come a very long way towards achieving those goals, despite the many sacrifices animals over the years. I know the success rate at keeping the animals over extended periods of time has dramatically increased over the past 25 years. We are doing what couldn’t be done because of the perseverance of ardent hobbyist’s and the discoveries and experiments done by them that was shared for all to improve themselves as keepers. Are their things that need improving? Yes, for starters I think it’s high time that a special fish keeping course be mandatory for all stores that wish to keep marine fish. It should be considered a profession or a specialty. A licensed person would always have to be on hand to answer questions regarding saltwater inquiries. Stores should be obliged to have minimum of proper equipment to properly take care of marine fish and inverts. Distributors should have the same exact obligations as stores. You want to see healthy fish and inverts and stores clean up their act, this would definitely be a huge step in the right direction. Yes it will all add up in cost to the consumer, but then again maybe little Nemo buyers will think twice then. I’m sure more could be done, but this would be a start. |
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#39
04/09/2006, 09:15 PM
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Otherwise, you are more than welcome to bring your experience and knowledge to the table
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Bill "LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi) |
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#40
05/07/2006, 03:30 PM
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If you by a fish or coarl from a LFS you could be saving its life. When people collect fish from the reef for the hobby they arnt deystroing the reef. In 50 years from now hobbyist fish tanks may be the only places to see these enviroments.
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#41
05/08/2006, 08:43 PM
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You want to play Devil's advocate? fine................How many fish do you have?
How many corals? Where did you get them from? Were they taken with care or ripped of the reef? Do you frag and sell? Do you encourage other people to do this hobbie either directly or indirectly? How many tanks do you have? You attack us for reading your post to get a response only to play "Devils Advocate!" I can't speak for other people but I read this forum to educate myself and to help others, if i can, not to fight. I wish you luck on whatever it is you're trying to do! That is my response to your post. |
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#42
05/13/2006, 05:56 AM
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The atlantic cod fisherman that lived in the boston area use to say "this is our livelyhood we would never do anyting to harm it." Then they proceeded to destroy the carrying capacity of the cod in the area until fishing had to be banned. I think a similar pattern may be developing with the saltwater fish market. I think someone needs to over-regulate the collection of tropical fish. Indoensia allows mimic octopus to be collected, even though everyone understands that they are rare and infrequent. I think marine fish should be so expensive that only a few would be able to afford them. Keeping marine aquariums should be a privalege not a right.
PS. I also think gas prices should be set around $4 a gallon so only a few people can use the roads and everyone else can take public transportation. Again remeber driving is a privelige not a right. |
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#43
05/13/2006, 01:32 PM
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What a gas, to think our hobby has an impact on wild populations is pretty arrogant.
Commercial fishing has more to say about reef conditions than any other ocean going influence. You then add on poverty stricken 3rd world countries that harvest with dynamite, poison and anything else they can get their hands on (including commercial nets that have been jettisoned rather than collected and fixed). Bleaching the fault of the hobbyist? yea right (also the biggest issue on the reefs) I think you will have a problem laying any of the issues on the hobby other than maybe isolated areas that are denuded of a specific species due to harvesting. So blame it on anyone that say has a wild harvested Anemone...... Funny thread for a person to start in a hobby forum other than to just stir up a few emotional types. Hobbyist killing the oceans , man I need a laugh track playing here 
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"It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear" |
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#44
05/16/2006, 11:54 AM
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this is the 39th post with no response from the creator.
Seems like he doesnt want to touch it now that he might have done some research. Lol Ever see a yellow tang caught and ate. It happens every day all day long. My fish usually last longer than lunch. What we damage in the reefs is minimal compared to say biulding an airport on water, offshore drilling, global warming, pollution, fishing, etc, etc, etc................. Most corals are frag grown and not pulled from the ocean anyways. It's free to frag, and the corals are healthy.
__________________
______________________________ Colorado is sweet. I'm always down to go to the MJ My Turbo Honda -> Click little red house. Friends don't let friends buy from Front Range Aquatics |
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#45
05/16/2006, 11:59 AM
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That doesn't mean that we can or should ignore the damage our hobby does.
Also, at this point the vast bulk of corals for sale in the industry are pulled from the ocean, not fragged or aquacultured.
__________________
The reefer formally known as Lefty Ink is the way; the way is ink. |
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#46
05/16/2006, 12:30 PM
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Nobody should ignore the problem, we know it exists.
I'm not sure about my LR or what came on it since I got it from people on RC. <-- Did my part not to destruct the environment here. My corals are all from frags, of frags, from people on RC <--- Once again did my part to be friendly to the echo system. My sand came from someone on RC <---- Yet again recycling a once natural product to continue its life instead of the trash can. Overall the only thing I can think of that I got from the ocean were my fish....... and even then some of them came from RC and 2 rescued from petkiller. Who's not doing there part. Not I. Its all what you choose to do.
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______________________________ Colorado is sweet. I'm always down to go to the MJ My Turbo Honda -> Click little red house. Friends don't let friends buy from Front Range Aquatics |
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#47
05/16/2006, 08:30 PM
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10% of the world's Co2 emmisions are generated by the 600 coal-fired electric plants in the U.S., because we are afraid of
nuke power. The hobby is not the problem. Of 7000 islands in the Philippines how many are collected for corals? NONE ! such is the case in most island groups. Dredging for profit ventures, as pointed out does far more damage than all the collectors put together. 95% of the islands in the world have never been collected. They are ALL in danger due to human population and general disrespect for all things non human. We should step up collecting 10,000% to try to build gene pools of each island group as a hedge against the day, and it will come, when, as we did with so many species on the verge of extinction, the collectors and hobbyists will have the gene pools to save them. |
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#48
05/16/2006, 09:26 PM
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I find certain regions of the "Human" gene pool in dire need of a splash of "chlorine" myself...
The same people that are screaming conspiracy and foul about the gas companies making billions on $3 a gallon gas are the exact same people that for 30 years have fought tooth and nail to keep any new refineries from being built (supply and demand is the cause of fuel prices, if we could refine the fuel, it would up the supply, this decreases prices) It would lead me to believe that these would be the same people blaming hobbyist on the decline of the reefs (oh and they complain about the price of lobster too) 
__________________
"It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear" |
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#49
05/20/2006, 08:43 AM
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Hi..
My first post here....so hello everyone. I'm in the process of setting up my first marine aquarium, and as a lover for all natural life on this planet this was the one topic i was torn over, I believe that everyone has their part to play however small to protect the reefs from abuse.. By purchasing from reputable dealers and by being INFORMED on which species are NOT suitable for captive living. I think it's important to discuss these topics and that if someone or informed body could produce a regularly updated list of species that should not be not be kept and LFS be obliged to do so too. Lets hope some sort of regulation is enforced soon. |
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#50
05/20/2006, 01:51 PM
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Research is key, impulse buys are often big mistakes for most. Most livestock suitable for home tanks is propagated in captivity good for us. There is still a lot of wild caught that is just fine but again, research is critical Good Luck on your new tank!
__________________
"It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear" |
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