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  #101  
Old 09/06/2006, 06:37 PM
wannabefishguru wannabefishguru is offline
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see what happens when you left me in so much suspension, a couple of wires got fried over the weekend beinge drinking whating for an update

whating means waiting, see what i mean? dang beer
  #102  
Old 09/06/2006, 06:40 PM
druce druce is offline
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whating doesn't mean whaling?

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  #103  
Old 09/07/2006, 02:02 PM
WaterKeeper WaterKeeper is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Travis L. Stevens
You'll be shocked what lighting I'll use for this, too.
Not if you use a GFCI.
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  #104  
Old 09/07/2006, 02:34 PM
Travis L. Stevens Travis L. Stevens is offline
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True, true. WaterKeeper, you won't be so shocked though.
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  #105  
Old 09/07/2006, 04:44 PM
druce druce is offline
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ah the wit on here is never dry (see even I can use a pun)

lol



keep it coming man, I need my daily fix of tank posts
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  #106  
Old 09/07/2006, 04:52 PM
Travis L. Stevens Travis L. Stevens is offline
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Hmm... I have a couple bosses coming in tomorrow, so I don't think I'll be able to give an update until Monday. I'm pretty sure that I'm going to update on Substrate choices, their pros, cons, and detailed explanation.
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  #107  
Old 09/07/2006, 04:59 PM
druce druce is offline
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tell them to come back when you aren't building a tank... they'll understand
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  #108  
Old 09/08/2006, 01:44 PM
Travis L. Stevens Travis L. Stevens is offline
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Step 4: Choosing a Substrate

Many choices of substrate are available to todays aquarists. To new hobbyists, the choices are daunting. But don't let all of these options get you frustrated or confused. Each type of substrate has its own advantages and disadvantages. As an aquarist, one must choose the correct substrate to fit the aquarium type. For example, fish like Jawfish need a deep substrate to dig a home to live in. Most of these animals don't need sand to live, but it sure does help. When choosing a substrate option there are two major factors to consider: Substrate Depth and Substrate Type. Each has its own unique qualities and flaws. Let me help break that down for you.

Substrate Depth
None - Usually none. Occassionally 0-.5"
Shallow - Roughly 0-3"
Deep - Roughly 3" or more

Substrate Type
Aragonite
Bare Bottom
Crushed Coral
False Bottom
Rock Rubble
Silica Sand
Starboard

Modifiers
Eggcrate
PVC
Other
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  #109  
Old 09/08/2006, 01:55 PM
Travis L. Stevens Travis L. Stevens is offline
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Step 4: Choosing a Substrate (Continued)

First, let's discuss Subtrate Depth. Many factors involve the need for substrate depth, but mostly depth is chosen on the properties of filtration and chemistry

None
Having no substrate is a recently popularized method. It means just what it sounds like. There is extremely little to no substrate at all. It's a simple, inexpensive method that has an interesting look to it. Occassionally, some people choose this method because of the unique, modern look that fits well with the home's interior decor. Yet others choose it because it looks like a section of a reef wall or drop off. But most people choose this for the little, yet easy maintenance that is involved

Pros: Easy Maintenance. Unique Look. Extremely cheap or even free.
Cons: Debris shows up easily. Constant maintenance for visual appeal. Limited livestock options

Shallow Substrate
This type of substrate has been around the longest. It provides a natural look with low maintenance. Though many types of substrate can be expensive, having it not very deep eases up the pressure on the expenses. Many people who choose this depth choose it because of the natural look with little maintenance.

Pros: Low Maintenance. Natural Look. Moderate Price
Cons: Can hold excess nutrients. Limited livestock

Deep Substrate
A deep substrate is a relatively new choice. It makes for a natural filtration method that can't be beat. That is when it is maintained and used properly. Most people choose this depth because of filtration. But others choose it for the wide range of available livestock. Unfortunately, improper maintenance can lead to future problems.

Pros: Filtration. Lots of livestock. Natural look
Cons: High Maintenance. High Cost
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  #110  
Old 09/08/2006, 02:22 PM
rodgod20 rodgod20 is offline
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Travis,

Everything I have read, which isn't much btw because I only have a nano, is that dsb are easy to maintain. What would need to be done to maintain a dsb? I am sure some others would like to know as well.

Thanks
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  #111  
Old 09/08/2006, 02:45 PM
captbunzo captbunzo is offline
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Over time, a Deep Sand Bed WILL become a nutrient sink - at least that is the concept the anti-DSB folks stand in. It basically means that the sand bed will become filled with partially degraded food, waste, etc, and become a source of great nutrient problems.

And there is some truth to that. The biggest problems folks have with DSB are:

   1. Grain size - smaller is better
   2. Inadequate flow - more and diffuse flow is important

The second point is more critical. Flow needs to be both ample and diffuse.

Diffuse flow refers to something non-firehose in form. You want firehouse - think the single, small output of pump. You want diffuse, imagine a SEIO or Tunze powerhead, or the flow created by a Closed Loop hooked up to a Closed Loop Manifold. And if that doesn't make it clear, understand that we are simply talking about "spread out" flow, rather then laminar, or all in single jet, flow.

Ample refers to PLENTY OF IT. I would say the average reef tank should have approximately 20x turnover per hour of water. For a 100 gallon tank, that would be 2000 gph of DIFFUSE flow. That could be 3 SEIO m620 (620 gph a piece - almost there at 1860 gph). That can be accomplished in other manners as well.

But it isn't necessarily BAD to go higher then that - 30x to 40x turnover is often suggested by folks such as Anthony Calfo. He even talks about keeping some of his own tanks at 60x. Crazy! Anyhow, anything less then 20x is going to result in more nutrient settling then is good.

By keeping the tank water well stirred, we are allowing nutrients to stay in the water column both so that they will avoid settling and breaking down into the sand bed, but ALSO so that they will have the opportunity to STICK to the water surface (via adhesion and cohesion) and then hopefully be surface skimmed by a surface overflow and then delivered right to a protein skimmer.

Anyhow, enough of my blathering for now... TAG, you're it, Travis.
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  #112  
Old 09/08/2006, 03:13 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Quote:
Not if you use a GFCI.
Should I use a ground probe with that? Or is it an above the ground probe? I'm so confused
  #113  
Old 09/08/2006, 03:19 PM
captbunzo captbunzo is offline
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GFCI attempts to detect a ground fault - as in electricity going somewhere it shouldn't - as in THROUGH you. It breaks the circuit if that happens. You should have these in your bathrooms and probably your kitchen.

A ground probe goes in your tank and provides a way for stray electricity to get from the tank water out.

I actually remember there are some pretty important rules about using or not using some of these devices without each other. I will try to find that and post it.
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  #114  
Old 09/08/2006, 03:19 PM
druce druce is offline
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ooh more updates - thanks Travis - I know you are busy out there!
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  #115  
Old 09/08/2006, 04:59 PM
Mr31415 Mr31415 is offline
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What I like most is the concept that one *can* build an aquarium for less than $(some ridiculously large amount)...

Will be interesting to see the equipment choices...

Good work Travis!
  #116  
Old 09/08/2006, 05:17 PM
Travis L. Stevens Travis L. Stevens is offline
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Step 4: Choosing a Substrate (Continued)

Now come the truly fun part. You get to decide what you want the substrate to consist of. There are lots of options here. And many more that aren't covered, or even used in the hobby that could potentially be the next new thing. This is where you get to be creative.

Aragonite Sand
Aragonite is the bread and butter of most marine aquarium substrates. It's the most common type. It's formed from eroded coral skeletons. It's composed of various sized grains of Calcium Bicarbonate. It is natural and safe for all marine life.

Pros: Completely Natural. It also provides your tank with a natural buffer. By dissolving, aragonite releases calcium and carbonate back into the system and helps keeps your Calcium and Alkalinity in balance. Available in various grain sizes
Cons: Expensive. Alternatives can be difficult to find. Buffer ability doesn't occur until the pH starts to drop to around 7.8. Significant amounts won't show up until the pH reaches 7.4 or below.
Filtration: In shallow depths it provides good ammonia and nitrite removal. In deep sand beds, it can provide an excellent denitrification method to quickly remove nitrates.
Maintenance: Keeping the top layer gently stirred helps. Generally syphoning is unnecessary.
Upkeep: Occassionally some aquarists need to replace lost sand, but actual manual maintenance is minimal and can be done sporadically
Common Depth: Slightly deep to very deep. Generally 2"-4"
Common Tank Types: All. Especially Mixed Reefs
Cost: Aquarium Industry - ~$1.00 USD per Pound Hardware Industry - ~$0.10-$0.20 USD per Pound
Similar Substrate Types: Silica Sand
Alternatives: Most people have heard of Hardware Industry Grade Aragonite. Such as the infamous Southdown, Yardright, and Old Castle. But you can also get Pulverized Limestone for the same price. Limestone is a rock that is formed from ancient coral reefs. It's primarily Calcium Bicarbonate, but it's not as pure as Aragonite and is very dusty and dirty.

Bare Bottom
This is just what it seems. The tank is left completely bare.

Pros: Simple and Free
Cons: Constant, yet simple upkeep and maintenance. Limited Livestock
Filtration: Provides no filtration except the thin layer of bacteria that coats the bottom of the tank.
Maintenance: Mainenance is easy. A quick syphoning and it will shine like new
Upkeep: Upkeep is tedious and constant. Regular syphoning is needed, but can be done with water changes
Common Depth: None of course
Common Tank Types: SPS Dominated Tanks
Cost: Free
Similar Substrate Types: False Bottom and Starboard
Alternatives: None

Crushed Coral
Crushed Coral is just that. It's cheap and readily available to most aquarists. The use of this substrate type is slowly fading away. Fortunately, Crushed Coral is a multiple use type. Some people use it as media in their Calcium Reactors as well as a filler material for cement and rocks

Pros: Natural Looking. Can buffer like Aragonite. Offers shelter for small organisms
Cons: Improper maintenance can cause nitrates to build up and be released back into the system
Filtration: This provides excellent surface area for ammonia and nitrite removal. Unless it's extremely deep, it can't provide an area for denitrification to occur
Maintenance: Like freshwater fish tanks with gravel bottoms, Crushed Coral needs to be cleaned by syphoning to remove trapped organic compounds.
Upkeep: Depending on how heavy you feed and how heavy of a bioload is in your tank, syphoning might need to occur often.
Common Depth: Shallow
Common Tank Types: Soft Coral, Fish Only with Live Rock, Fish Only, and Propogation Tanks
Cost: Nominally cheap. ~$0.50 USD per pound
Similar Substrate Types: Rock Rubble
Alternatives: Crushed Oyster Shell could be used, but it often contains phosphates, organic compounds, and other nasty chemicals

False Bottom
False Bottoms are made of different materials. Most often it's just starboard with a natural substrate attached to it. Sand is a common choice to cover it with, but other types have been used. Occassionally, you will find a False Bottom created out of cement

Pros: Natural Looking and Customizable
Cons: Regular Maintenance
Filtration: Provides little filtration through bacteria, but many microfauna help break down complex organic matter
Maintenance: Just syphoning is fine. Algae can take a foothold easily on this surface
Upkeep: Regular Syphoning makes it look good, but up to monthly syphoning is fine. Or syphon when you see lots of debris.
Common Depth: None
Common Tank Types: SPS and Clam Dominated Tanks. Occassionally Mixed Reefs
Cost: Varies between base material. Starboard - See "Starboard" entry Cement - Depending on the thickness and area that needs covered, a square foot may only cost $1.00 USD at most. Most likely drastically less.
Similar Substrate Types: Bare Bottom, Starboard, and Shallow Substrates
Alternatives: Epoxied bottom tanks without a coating of substrate

Rock Rubble
Rock Rubble is harder to find in use as a form of substrate, but it makes a unique, natural environment as well as a substrate. It provides great places for animals to grow, reproduce, and hunt. It also mimics rubble zones in reefs.

Pros: Great place for animals to live. Looks natural
Cons: Very expensive and not commonly used. Little information available
Filtration: It provides an environment for ammonia and nitrites to be filtered. Nitrates are broken down inside the larger peices of rubble instead of in an area that is created from the substrate
Maintenance: Very little is needed. Syphoning helps
Upkeep: Every so often, turning a things over helps release trapped nutrients and expose new life to the surface
Common Depth: Shallow
Common Tank Types: Soft Coral and Mixed Reefs
Cost: $5.00-$8.00 USD per pound. Occassionally less or more
Similar Substrate Types: Crushed Coral
Alternatives: Take a hammer anc chisel to real live rock and break it down to the size that you need. Usually, live rock is cheaper to buy than buying just rubble.

Silica Sand
This type of sand is mainly made out of grains of Quartz Crystal (Silicon Dioxide (SiO2)). It's readily available at most hardware stores. It's occassionally sold as Sand Blasting Sand

Pros: Available almost everywhere. Good alternative to Aragonite
Cons: Leaks silicates at a slow rate. Somwhat unnatural looking. Excess nutrients combined with available silicates can cause diatom blooms
Filtration: Provides good biological filtration for ammonia and nitrite. Depending on depth, this can provide an excellent source for nitrate removal. With controlled amounts of nutrients, diatoms created from the leaking silicates can become an excellent source of food for corals and other invertebrates as well as an easy way to remove nutrients through skimming and manual removal.
Maintenance: High maintenance is important. High Nutrient levels combined with the available silicates can result in large, difficult diatom blooms
Upkeep: Depending on depth, scheduled maintenance is most likely not needed. Occassionally light disturbances of the top layer will help biological filtration
Common Depth: Moderately shallow to moderately deep
Common Tank Types: Soft Coral and Mixed Reefs
Cost: ~$0.10 - $0.20 USD per pound
Similar Substrate Types: Aragonite Sand
Alternatives: Playsand is more commonly used and more commonly available than Silica Sand. But it is usually dirtier, dusty, and not very pure.

Starboard
This is a bottom made of a type of cutting board that butchers and the like use. The material resists scratching and helps prevent rocks from knocking, scratching, chipping, and even breaking the bottoms of tanks.

Pros: Simple, clean, and protects the tank. Comes in many colors
Cons: Unnatural. Constant Upkeep. Limited Livestock
Filtration: Provides little filtration except what adheres to the starboard
Maintenance: Maintenance is easy. Simply syphoning up the available debris does nicely. Occassionally algae will grow on the surface of the the starboard and be difficult to remove.
Upkeep: To keep it looking nice, regular syphoning is needed. An occassional slip it maintenance doesn't normally show
Common Depth: None
Common Tank Types: SPS and Clam Dominated Tanks
Cost: Varies drastically.
Similar Substrate Types: Bare Bottom and False Bottom
Alternatives: Few. Mainly different styles of the same material
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  #117  
Old 09/08/2006, 05:18 PM
Travis L. Stevens Travis L. Stevens is offline
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My apologies to all for the lack of updates. While I was typing the post above, I was called into a two hour long meeting.
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  #118  
Old 09/08/2006, 05:22 PM
Travis L. Stevens Travis L. Stevens is offline
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Step 4: Choosing a Substrate (Continued)

Lastly, we will talk about Modifiers. What is a modifier? A modifier is something that isn't normally used as a substrate, but something that adds to it. For example, some people like to add structure to their substrate.

Eggcrate
Also called Light Diffuser, this can be added inside of a substrate to help support the rock, substrate, or even protect the glass

PVC Pipes
Many people often build shelves and such to help give the substrate shape. It can also provide an excellent source to support rockwork on

Other
You name it. Be creative. Just because it's never been tried doesn't mean that it can't be done. Just do a little research about the material's safety in the marine aquarium.
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  #119  
Old 09/08/2006, 05:40 PM
Travis L. Stevens Travis L. Stevens is offline
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Step 4: Choosing a Substrate (Continued)

Most people end up either choosing between Bare Bottom or Aragonite sand. But, everyone wants to save as much money as possible. So, people look for alternative sources than what they find overly priced in fish stores. Often, they head out to a hardware store in search of the right sand. But, packages aren't specifically labelled. On top of the that, the well known names are just a legend long gone. It's difficult to find the true Southdown, Yardright, and Old Castle sand. So, people resort to the Fizz Test

The Fizz Test

Ah, the famous fizz test. This is where you take a sample of sand and soak it in vinegar to determine if it is Aragonite based. But there is a lot of rumors and misconceptions that go around. So, I've outlined the experiment so you can do it at home for more substantial successful results.

First, you will need to find a suspected sand to test. Next, you will need to find something to soak it in. A large, wide bowl that offers an area to spread the sand on will help the reactions to occur. A small, narrow container like a shot glass is a horrible decision. Then, you will need to get some Distilled White Vinegar. Then set up the following:

Enough large, wide bowls for each sample
1 Cup of Distilled White Vinegar
1 Tablespoon of sample sand

Sounds simple enough, right? It is. Just pour the sand in the vinegar making sure that it gets spread out and not piled up. Then, watch for it to fizz. Hey look! It's fizzing! Does this mean it's Aragonite? Well, not always. The vinegar could be reacting to other things inside the sand mix besides Aragonite. There is a noticable fizz difference between Silica Sand, Silica Based Play Sand, and Aragonite. Silica Sand barely fizzes at all, if any. Play Sand will fizz as it reacts to the dirt and other stuff. But Aragonite has a unique fizz with lots of tiny bubbles.

Here I've outlined a sample test for you to see the difference. Here is what I have in the set up.

3 large, wide bowls
3 1 Cup portions of Distilled White Vinegar
1 Tablespoon of Play Sand
1 Tablespoon of the real Southdown
1 Tablespoon of Pulverized Limestone



Now, let's get a closer look at the sand samples. The red bowl has Play Sand in it, the blue bowl has Southdown in it, and the green bowl has Pulverized Limestone.





Now it's time for some action!!!
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  #120  
Old 09/08/2006, 05:43 PM
Travis L. Stevens Travis L. Stevens is offline
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The Fizz Test (Continued)

Now, let's get into some action. Let's start the pouring. First we pour in the Play Sand. As you can see, not much fizzing going on. There is fizz though, so don't be fooled.



Next, let's pour in the Southdown. As you can see, from the time I poured it in to the time that I picked up my camera to take a picture, it was fizzing like crazy.



Finally let's pour in the Pulverized Limestone. This is a new contender to the Aragonite battle. But, as you can see, it fizzes just as much as the Soutdown. That's because Limestone is Calcium Bicarbonate just like Aragonite



Here are all three side by side for comparisson.

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  #121  
Old 09/08/2006, 05:46 PM
Travis L. Stevens Travis L. Stevens is offline
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The Fizz Test (5 Minutes Later)

Well, it's been five minutes now. Let's check on the progress. The Play Sand is barely fizzing at all now....


...the Southdown is still going strong.....


...and the Pulverized Limestone is still fizzing, but the bubbles at the top are popped.
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  #122  
Old 09/08/2006, 05:49 PM
Travis L. Stevens Travis L. Stevens is offline
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The Fizz Test (10 Minutes Later)

Well, now 10 minutes has passed. To make things interesting, I gave all of them a small stir. Before the stir, the Play Sand wasn't fizzing, but after the stir, it fizzed a little more....


...The Southdown had slowed down, but after stirring it kicked back into full force....


...and the same thing happened with the Pulverized Limestone. Still no bubbles sticking to the surface.
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  #123  
Old 09/08/2006, 05:55 PM
Travis L. Stevens Travis L. Stevens is offline
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The Fizz Test (One Hour Later)

After one hour, all three had pretty much stopped fizzing. I have to say that I proved a point. But for fun, I wanted to figure out why the Aragonite sands stopped fizzing. So, I stirred it a little and added some more vinegar. It started to fizz again. So, I concluded that the vinegar could no longer hold any more Calcium and Carbonate freely. It's reached its saturation point. That's just my assumption. My theory is with enough vinegar, all the aragonite will dissolve and leave any impurities left. But that's a test for later. Here are things after an hour.



Now, here is something fun to know. Ever wonder how much actually dissolved? Well, I started out with a level tablespoon of Southdown and Pulverized Limestone. Look how much dissolved in an hour.

Southdown Aragonite Sand


Pulverized Limestone


I hope that you enjoyed this experiment. Hopefully someone can use this as a guideline to find a new alternative to the LFS Aragonite Sand. Good Luck. And Good Hunting.
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  #124  
Old 09/08/2006, 07:44 PM
druce druce is offline
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so more fizz the better it is to use for the tank?
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  #125  
Old 09/09/2006, 11:12 AM
Travis L. Stevens Travis L. Stevens is offline
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The more that it fizzes, the more likely that it is an aragonite based sand that aquarists desperately search for. You can use either sand. It's just a personal preference.
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