Should Vendors be requird to warn buyers about the toxic nature of zoos??

vijaym85 · #1 03/07/2007, 12:18 AM

Do you think that a potential vendor of this coral should be required to inform its buyers about the toxins contained in zooanthids. While many people are now aware of this coral's potential danger its still perhaps one of the most commly purchased and sold and one which a beginner is likely to come in contact with, since they are relatively cheap, hardy, abundant and fragable. Or is it a question of being bad for business.

melev · #2 03/07/2007, 12:24 AM

Required? No.

Should they inform their customers that there is a risk? That would be nice. They should also inform us of any potential predators they may be sending along with the purchase, such as Sundial Snails, Zoanthid-eating nudibranchs, Zoanthid-eating spiders, flatworms, red bugs and more. All of these are detrimental to our system.

I think a good vendor will include a link or links to some excellent reading material either that they've written or that written by others so that their customer base will have success in keeping the livestock purchased.

Bebo77 · #3 03/07/2007, 12:28 AM

i guess.. never though about it...

vijaym85 · #4 03/07/2007, 12:32 AM

Sometimes I worry that the only way Vendors will ever become required is through a tragic event like a fatality. thankfully its very uncommon but if our hobby grows and the number of people involved increases the risk does as well. I suppose I feel its best that we police ourselves pro-actively prior to such an event which could result in potential governmental regulation. Also I have noticed more younger individuals are taking up this hobby as well which often means they maybe a bit less cautious or well read on the subject.

DrBegalke · #5 03/07/2007, 01:19 AM

It will just take one injury and the "right" lawyer.... to have "warning: this coffee cup is hot" stamped all over zoas....

Ursus · #6 03/07/2007, 01:27 AM

I don't think they could ever be required to warn people or be held accountable. That would be like requiring Home Depot to warn people about the dangers of breathing paint fumes whenever someone bought paint. Sure, the product has a warning on it but that was placed on there by the manufacturer. It's a little different with live animals.

A warning would be nice, but I don't see it ever happening. As long as people research they should be ok.

vijaym85 · #7 03/07/2007, 01:46 AM

But the person selling the animal kinda becomes the same as the manufacturer of the paint in essence since they are distributing to the public and since there is no patent or copyright needed. I mean can anyone deny right now that they never heard NEMO fish or DORI fish in the LFS before. There are people who are not likely as well read as many of us. I think enough people buy things without learning about them ahead of time to warrant such a warning. I cant imagine some kid's parents buying a coral as easily if they knew it was dangerous and there kids were around the tank alot or helped with the tank.

Buit I agree that until some law is passed there will never be any incentive for a company to want to illustrate an aspect that may potentially turn away a sale. Its just going beyond what is expected of them to do so at this point.

Sk8r · #8 03/07/2007, 02:07 AM

I think that it makes good sense to do it: better lose a sale than to end up in a lawsuit---and as my lawyer brother said to me, anybody can SUE for anything; win, no, but SUE, yes, and it's expensive. Plus it's just plain courteous to advise a potential buyer in the initial offering: just say---palytoxin, etc. Please be advised this is a toxic substance naturally produced by this animal, and care is advised in handling both animals and water in which these animals have been contained.

littlefish72 · #9 03/07/2007, 03:50 AM

Althought most people never do this i believe people should do a fair amount of research themselves and learn the pros and cons, risks and benefits, and just over all care of any animal purchaced.......people should take it upon themselves to learn about their purchase because it is their money anyway and the internet is pretty much available to everyone

taketz · #10 03/07/2007, 03:57 AM

Quote:

It will just take one injury and the "right" lawyer.... to have "warning: this coffee cup is hot" stamped all over zoas....

Bad example IMO, but I understand what you're trying to get at.

As for a warning? It would be nice, but I'm also of the mind of you should be responsible for your own actions. Then again, those that are honest about the dangers and everything else Melev said, definately get some points in my book...

Frick-n-Frags · #11 03/07/2007, 04:22 AM

You know, if I ever met the mcdonalds coffee lady in person, I would strangle her with my bare hands. I am still smokin over that one.

So, obviously I would also not require the seller to say that.

However, a good seller also gives useful information and advice along with the product to "add value" to his product/service

Me, I believe in natural selection. If you are too retarded to learn a little about just what you are sticking your hands in to, no tears here if the shallow end of the gene pool gets lightened a little.

taketz · #12 03/07/2007, 04:29 AM

Like I stated above, most people comment on the 'McDonalds lady' without knowing most of the facts of that case and if they did, would likely change their opinion of the legitimacy of her claim. Feel free to PM me if you would like to know more about it, but just know that McDonalds was fully, and unequivically at fault.

Don't mean to de-rail the thread, its just that I can't let it just go by that easily after hearing the details myself...

vijaym85 · #13 03/07/2007, 07:54 AM

-Why i don't feel bad for Coffe lady but bad for a Zoo buyer...
1 Cofffe indicates its heat through steam which means its boiling hot. Most any human being have seen this form of heat transfer.
2 Coffe in the cup is warm to the touch. So obviously its warmer when its on your skin.

Coffe registers 2 very common senses, touch and sight, a zooanthid does not. It actually is a bit deceptive as in nature some extremely venomous or toxic creatures like to showcase their abaility to inflict pain through their color to avoid an altercation. But many zoos are rather drab and NOT ALWAYS metallic and highly colored so even if you were looking for a color signiture to warn you you won't get one as easily on a bland generally cheaper polyp.

One moe Analogy

Have any of you or your loved ones ever been to a doctor and was prescribed medication. Did that doctor or Pharmacist warn you of any form of drug interaction or special dietry needs to be taken while under said mediaction....

Should they assume your well read to figure it out yourself or should they warn you????

I don't know about you guys but I will take the warning! Just beacuse it's a hobby dosn't mean a warning should not be expected. Besides that we have warnings on say planters peanuts for choking hazard might sound silly or overprotective but it got there for a reason, then there is the warning over peanut allergy ... did everyone know about that allergy prior to it becoming a standard on many food packages because they were all well read on PEANUTS to not need the warning present???

taketz · #14 03/07/2007, 08:09 AM

1. Coffee should not be served hot enough to physically graft your skin to your pants.

2. We are knowingly taking something from an exotic habitat and coming into close contact with it. We should do the appropriate research into the subject as to realize we are handling some of the most toxic organisms on earth.

In the end however, the risk to the aquariust is quite small given how many people have come into contact with such corals and how many have been seriously harmed.

andyjd · #15 03/07/2007, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by melev
Required? No.

Should they inform their customers that there is a risk? That would be nice. They should also inform us of any potential predators they may be sending along with the purchase, such as Sundial Snails, Zoanthid-eating nudibranchs, Zoanthid-eating spiders, flatworms, red bugs and more. All of these are detrimental to our system.

I think a good vendor will include a link or links to some excellent reading material either that they've written or that written by others so that their customer base will have success in keeping the livestock purchased.

My thoughts exactly

Andy

greenbean36191 · #16 03/07/2007, 08:28 AM

I think it's kind of silly to suggest that people be required to warn customers about the dangers of zoanthids. What about all of the other animals that contain palytoxin or otherwise pose a serious health risk to people or pets? Why single out zoanthids? The risk they pose is pretty minor.

I do think that cone snails and blue ring octopuses should be required to carry warnings, but that's only because they are known to kill people and pose a much more likely threat of evenomating a careless handler.

vijaym85 · #17 03/07/2007, 08:44 AM

I guess I am going to walk a lonely road and have to stick by my my original feeling. I dont' think a seller is compelled to warm someone without there being a law. But I really think that is irresponsible of them to not want to if they have knowledge of it. I think I still feel sympathy for noobs. When you consider some of the more silly warnings, a warning on this, or on a lionfish or etc. seems a bit more justified.

This should not be the only way a person gets their info.. 90% of sites will tell you about an animals care so why not about caring for yourself..

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=158730

Perhaps the next time you go to a doctor you will have them skip the warnings and attempt to ascertain the info youself. Why do you think all drug adds have a million disclaimers at the end. Its in the best interest of their company to warn someone rather than not. I am very happy hardly anybody has ever really become sick but don't think that should superceed proactive measures. But again until that day comes if ppl choose to not make it a big deal then they have a right to IMO. Its like Global warming I suppose. PPl will care only after it causes some form of irreperable damage.

Wrench · #18 03/07/2007, 09:53 AM

I'm a firm believer in Darwin-ism. The dumb woman at McDonalds with the coffee deserved to get burned. If you're dumb enough to buy toxic zoos without reading up on them, and then eating them, you deserve to get sick. Natural selection at it's best. It's widely known that you are to wash your hands after they've been in the tank or if you've just finished fragging. YOu never know what could have found it's way in there from the wild. This country has too many laws and regulations to prodect the idiots.

On another note, I had read one of the articles in the Zoanthid forum that it was only certain members of the family that carried the toxin. True?

silvers · #19 03/07/2007, 10:09 AM

not all zoas are toxic are they? I have been squrited directly in the eye and mouth more than one occasion. I paniced the first time nothing happened it has happened one more time sence then

HoopsGuru · #20 03/07/2007, 10:13 AM

As mentioned, why single out zoanthids? There are many corals that produce toxic substances that are more commonly found in our hobby. Responsible handling should be common sense by now, wear gloves and wash your hands...launder any towels you handle. Folks should be doing this no matter what they are doing in a fish tank considering the amounts of bacteria, etc. that are present that are likely to be foreign for most doctors to figure out in an emergency.

kathainbowen · #21 03/07/2007, 10:35 AM

I'm going to have to agree with Hoops on this one. Why single out zoos? What about all the more commonly sold venomous or stinging specimens? Lionfish, rabbitfish, anemones. I've even, on the rare occasion, seen fire corals and blue ring octopus. What about warning labels all over kitty litter and litter trays regarding the dangers for unborn children? Warning labels on nickels and pennies in regards to the dangers of children swallowing them?

The answer: because there is only so much room on product packaging and advertising that can be spared for things other than getting you to buy it.

Sadly, that's the truth. =/

sjfishguy · #22 03/07/2007, 11:14 AM

The toxin of zoanthids is indeed very toxic, one of the most potent neurotoxins known, but the real risk to human is vastly overrated esp on this board. You have to have the palytoxin get into your bloodstream. You cant get it by touching them, this isnt the toxin that they use to sting, it is intercellular and is used a a chemical defense from predation. You have to smash the zoo to get to the toxin and then it must be absorbed into your blood stream through a mucous membrane or a cut. Then you have to have enough of it to affect your systemically to truly have effects (heart, lungs, etc.). Can you die from zoos, yes. Is it likely no. It is HIGHLY unlikely. You will more likely get a local reaction, irritation, tingling, etc. Do I wear gloves when I touch zoos, etc. No. Do I wear gloves when I frag my zoos (i.e. when some zoos actually rupture), Yes. There are things that pose a much greater risk to us than zoos.

sunfish11 · #23 03/07/2007, 11:54 AM

You know I used to think the same thing about the "McDonalds Lady," but after I read more about the case she was terribly injured by the coffee and I agree that it shouldn't be served hot enough to injure your genitals for life. I assume coffee is hot and that it will burn me, but not graft my skin to my pants, scar me for life, and ruin my intimate relations with my husband. How would you like to have your groin area burned that badly by a boiling cup of Joe in a flimsy cup with a crappy lid? I don't agree that this was a frivolous lawsuit after understanding the facts of the case better.

Anyway, I have seen warnings on dangerous animals like blue rings and lion fish, but never on Zoa's. I do think should be mentioned to the consumer, and sometimes it is. However, the consumer is responsible for some level of research as well.

vijaym85 · #24 03/07/2007, 12:09 PM

Im did't mean to single out zoo's but to list every single coral, invert or fish in the title is a bit cumbersome.

vijaym85 · #25 03/07/2007, 12:11 PM

Im did't mean to single out zoo's but to list every single dangerous coral, invert or fish in the title is a bit cumbersome.

I choose to make them in the title because they are all over the plce, Every WYSIWYG has them, they are cheap, inexpensive, easy to frag and pass on so I felt that they would be something more ppl come in contact with then anything else.