Are these parameters ok?

[jdieck]

Originally posted by vincent843
Hello Jdieck,
I have never cal the sum, but the person who gave it to me told it 60 gallons. Anyway, forgot to tell you that the sum is 2/3 full. When the pum is off, it will full to the top - 2". In this case, my true volum should be around 120 gallon?. I live in Southern Cal, so it will take a week for the Dowflake come. My testing may cause error, since it hard to determin what is the fluid changing from purple to clear light blue ( salifert's instruction). However, I notice that once it became blue, it wuoldn't change color anymore, even I tried to drop a few more droops. vincent

On the volume it depends, the sump may become 2/3 full but then the main tank level drops.
For calculating the volume I usually stop the pumps and skimmer and then I measure the actual water depth in the tank and sump.
This way the volume inside pipes and equipment when running is automatically taken into account. Then I use the tank or sump, internal width, internal lenght and measured water depth to calculate the actual volume.
This calculator will make it easier. Note that given the variations on rock porosity and sand grain size the water displaced by them is just an aproximation considering that half of the volume occupied by the rock and sand weight is 50 % open to water infiltration (50% porosity on the rock and 50% intersticial space in the sand grains)
http://jdieck1.home.comcast.net/volcalc.html

You are doing right with the kit, it is always a good idea after taking the reading to add a couple of more drops just to insure it does not change color any longer. If it does you were takin gthe reading a bit too soon.
In any case I would not expect a new tank to have a big Calcium consumption although during the start up it is usual for alkalinity to get consummed fast during the cycling process.

[tangman99]

Originally posted by jdieck

Can you run another test to see if the solution is strong enough? I want you to add 40 ml of formula, test the alkalinity right before the addition and after 15 minutes of the addition to see how much it increases and post this result. lets see if it increase by 0.6 to about 8.3

Ok, I doses the 18 ml last night to hopefully keep the alk at what we had it.

Reading tonight before dosing: 6.7 dhk
Reading 15 min. after dosing 40 ml: 7.0

Somehow I don't think these were the numbers we were looking for:

[jdieck]

OK so far we have:
a) Without dosing consumtion from 8 to 7.7 = 0.3 dKh in 24 hrs

b) You dosed 18 ml (0.3 dKh) so 24 hrs ago you might have been back at 8 or close to it
24 hours later 6.7, say consumption at 1.3 dKh or so.

c) You added 40 ml that should have increased alkalinity from 6.7 to almost 7.3-7.4 but increased to only 7

That data suggest:

a) Somehow addition seems to promote / create precipitation
This could be if the PH is high enough very local to the addition point

b) The solution might not be strong enough if the soda is not fully baked. This shall be noticeable if there is undissolved soda in the bottom of the supplement container. Do you see any?

Do you have any hot points in your aquarium (in touch with water) that may be precipitating carbonate? Hot pumps or impellers, UV lamp, heaters? although I think they might not be on this time of year.
Do you see any signs or precipitation?
What do you see when you are adding the supplenet?

One more thing, can you test now two hours after this last addition?, Let's see were that 7 stands bu then. I want to know if the drop continue fast after the dosing and at that level of 7.
Can you check the Calcium too?

[vincent843]

Hi Jdieck,
the number gave you yesterday was error.

So yesterday is cal=375, alk=2.28(6.4dKH). pH=8.2. Added 30ml WM reef pure.
today before adding cal=335, alk= 2.11(5.92 dKH), pH= 8.2. Added 80ml WM reef pure.
1 hour later. cal= 360, alk=2.17(6.08dKH), ph=8.2.

So what is going on here.

vincent

[jdieck]

Originally posted by vincent843
Hi Jdieck,
the number gave you yesterday was error.

So yesterday is cal=375, alk=2.28(6.4dKH). pH=8.2. Added 30ml WM reef pure.
today before adding cal=335, alk= 2.11(5.92 dKH), pH= 8.2. Added 80ml WM reef pure.
1 hour later. cal= 360, alk=2.17(6.08dKH), ph=8.2.

So what is going on here.

vincent

Apparently your consumption was 40 ppm calcium which should have consumed 2 meq/lt of alkalinity I would recommend checking the alkalinity testing over a 24 hour period.
Also please check your Magnesium, If calcium drops and alkalinity does not it might signal low Magnesium level.
The testing before and after the addition for calcium seems to match to what it should be; 80 ml of the supplement should have increased the Calcium by 25 ppm and it did and as you can notice Alkalinity and PH were basically unaffected.

I will keep on adding the Calcium supplement until you reach the 420 ppm then I will turn it down to a maintenance supplement. You can add up to 150 ml every 24 hours to increase the level.

Keep monitoring your Alkalinity. If the level is in reality at 6 dKh it is time to start also adding some baking soda dissolved in some RO/DI. You can add up to about 3 leveled tsps every 24 hours, That will increase alkalinity by about 1.5 dKh every dose.

Once Calcium is around 420 ppm and alkalinity at 9 to 10 dKh then you can switch to a two part supplement for maintenance.

[tangman99]

Here are some replies:

Somehow addition seems to promote / create precipitation. This could be if the PH is high enough very local to the addition point

Interesting point. I add the alk to the middle section of my sump that has the return pump. That glass of that whole chamber is coated white so I think it is precipitating.

This shall be noticeable if there is undissolved soda in the bottom of the supplement container. Do you see any?

No undesolved soda at all.

Do you have any hot points in your aquarium (in touch with water) that may be precipitating carbonate? Hot pumps or impellers . . .?

The chamber where I add the alk contains the Eheim 1262 return pump so it gets poured right on top of it.


What do you see when you are adding the supplenet?
It turns into a white cloudy mix

It's 1:00 in the morning so I think the window has passed to test again. Been watching a movie with the wife.

[jdieck]

Originally posted by tangman99
I add the alk to the middle section of my sump that has the return pump. That glass of that whole chamber is coated white so I think it is precipitating.

It's 1:00 in the morning so I think the window has passed to test again. Been watching a movie with the wife. [/B]

OK I think you will have to switch to Receipe 2 in order to stop "making rock"
The only difference is that the alkalinity part is made with baking soda which will not increase the PH and both parts are half the strenght.
You can still use the Calcium part of recipe 1 just use half the amount of the alkalinity part of recipe 2 or alternatively you can dilute it by adding one part of the supplement to one part of RO/DI.

Recipe 2 shall not give you the precipitation anymore.
If you wish you can try cleaning the white stuff of the sump to prevent the existing precipitation to promote further precipitation when dosing again.

Also check your Magnesium, that precipitation might have precipitated some of it also.

[vincent843]

Jdieck,
Am I dose both of WM cal and Baking soda (randy part 1 alk) the same time?
thanks. vincent

[jdieck]

Originally posted by vincent843
Jdieck,
Am I dose both of WM cal and Baking soda (randy part 1 alk) the same time?
thanks. vincent

Yes but while adjusting the alkalinity do not use Randy's formula, just dissolve the required baking soda powder (without baking it) in as little RO/DI water needed to dissolve it, otherwise you may end up adding too much fresh water to your system.
The calculator will tell you how much to use to get to your target.
just remember not to add more than 150 ml of the Warner Calcium and no more than three leveled teaspoons of baking soda every 24 hours.
You can add both one right after the other, just wait about 10 minutes in between each and do it in a high flow area, preferably in the sump.
Once your levels are on target then use Randy's formula for both Calcium and Alkalinity.
Remember to check your Magnesium too.

http://jdieck1.home.comcast.net/chem_calc3.html

[vincent843]

Thanks, jdieck.

[tangman99]

Originally posted by jdieck
OK I think you will have to switch to Receipe 2 in order to stop "making rock"
The only difference is that the alkalinity part is made with baking soda which will not increase the PH and both parts are half the strenght.
You can still use the Calcium part of recipe 1 just use half the amount of the alkalinity part of recipe 2 or alternatively you can dilute it by adding one part of the supplement to one part of RO/DI.

Recipe 2 shall not give you the precipitation anymore.
If you wish you can try cleaning the white stuff of the sump to prevent the existing precipitation to promote further precipitation when dosing again.

Also check your Magnesium, that precipitation might have precipitated some of it also.

I can give that a try. Does this picture confirm that I am getting precipitation?

Measurements this afternoon at 11:30 AM (16 hours later, I also added the 40 ml of calc last night to match the alk part)

PH: 8.0 (Main lights have been off for 12 1/2 hours except for sump light)
Alk: 7.0
Mag:1350
Calc: 425

Does water temp affect anything? My tank ranges from 81 to 83 degree. When I add my supplement it is usually around 83.

[jdieck]

Originally posted by tangman99
I can give that a try. Does this picture confirm that I am getting precipitation? I'll edit to post my alk, calc and mag shortly.

Sure it does, that explains the difficulty in increasing and maintaining the levels.
I think the PH on the recirc pump side increased while makin gthe addition creating the precipitation then the precipitate created even more than reducing the pre existing levels.
The recipe 2 does not increase PH but still try to add it slowly.
I think it will be easier to clean up the precipitate now before it gets really encrusted.
You may want to empty the sump clean it up and refill again during a water change. Keep the chaeto on a bucket of the aquarium water while in the process.

[tangman99]

As you replied already, I'll repost my test results:

Measurements this afternoon at 11:30 AM (16 hours later, I also added the 40 ml of calc last night to match the alk part)

PH: 8.0 (Main lights have been off for 12 1/2 hours except for sump light)
Alk: 7.0
Mag:1350
Calc: 425

Does water temp affect anything? My tank ranges from 81 to 83 degree. When I add my supplement it is usually around 83.

Also, would it help to add it to the main tank in front of a SEIO 1100 which has plenty of current instead of the sump?

Based on my readings, what should be my next step now? Go with Recipe 2 for the alk? Keep Recipe 1 for Calc and dose at a a ratio of 2/1 respectively?

The funny thing about you mentioning it raising alk, you can see how much precip is in the mid section. I have the return from their split to go to the fuge. You can see some precip in there but it is minimal. The funny thing is can also see my PH probe in the fuge. When I add the alk, you can see the probe climb rather rapidly even though the majority of the water from the return section is going up to the main tank.

[jdieck]

Originally posted by tangman99
Does water temp affect anything? My tank ranges from 81 to 83 degree. When I add my supplement it is usually around 83.

Not in that range

Also, would it help to add it to the main tank in front of a SEIO 1100 which has plenty of current instead of the sump?

It might just pour it very slowly

Based on my readings, what should be my next step now? Go with Recipe 2 for the alk? Keep Recipe 1 for Calc and dose at a a ratio of 2/1 respectively?

Yes go for recipe 2 Keep 1 for Calcium at 2alk /1 Calc until it runs out. Do not add Calcium part or Magnesium your levels are OK.
The Recipe 2 might tend to drop your PH slightly for about 12 hours so the best time to add will be at the begining of the day when the lights turn on so during the lighting period it will compensate.

The funny thing about you mentioning it raising alk, you can see how much precip is in the mid section. I have the return from their split to go to the fuge. You can see some precip in there but it is minimal. The funny thing is can also see my PH probe in the fuge. When I add the alk, you can see the probe climb rather rapidly even though the majority of the water from the return section is going up to the main tank.

Yes I am sure that if the probe were in the mid section were you were adding the supplement the PH reading should have increased significantly.

[tangman99]

Thank You so much for all your help. Here is what I am going to do then:

I'm going to first try adding what I have to the main tank in front of the SEIO and see if eliminates precip in the sump as the sump section is very small. I'll repeat the same test you had above for the 40 ml and see if the levels climb.

If that does not work, I'll mix up the recipe 2 alk and dose it 2/1 with calc. As the alk will take 2 gallons to the calc's one, when do I add the Mag part? I would guess after the gallon of calc.

Does this sound ok to proceed?

Thank You again for all your help.

[jdieck]

Originally posted by tangman99
Thank You so much for all your help. Here is what I am going to do then:

I'm going to first try adding what I have to the main tank in front of the SEIO and see if eliminates precip in the sump as the sump section is very small. I'll repeat the same test you had above for the 40 ml and see if the levels climb.

If that does not work, I'll mix up the recipe 2 alk and dose it 2/1 with calc. As the alk will take 2 gallons to the calc's one, when do I add the Mag part? I would guess after the gallon of calc.

Does this sound ok to proceed?

Thank You again for all your help.

I do not think you want to risk precipitation in the main tank, that can really affect your critters. You really need the recipe 2 to maintain your level in a balanced way but as your Calcium and Magnesium are OK you only need to increase the alkalinity thus you do not need to prepare the formula for alkalinity right now, just dissolve the required amount to of NOT baked baking soda to as little RO/DI needed to dissolve it.
You can add three leveled tsps of powder in RO/DI, that shall take you from 7 to 9, Test after 12 to 24 hours and add if needed till your alk is at 9.5 to 10 dKh
use the calculator selecting Baking Soda as the supplement for alkalinity.
Once Alk and Calcium are at proper level then you can use the Formula to maintain both.

[tangman99]

That makes sense. I'll do that. I won't add any calc part right now until I get the alk where I want it and then continue with the new recipe 2 for alk and my recipe 1 for calc.

[jdieck]

[tangman99]

I still have the question about adding the Mag solution:

For recipe 1, you add 2 1/2 when you go through 1 gallon
For recipe 2, you add 1/ 1/4 cups when you go through 1 gallon.

The end result is these are same as recipe 2 is half of recipe 1.

So if I use Recipe 1 for calc and Recipe 2 for alk, do I:

add 1 1/4 cup of mag after each gallon of alk supplement and each 1/2 gallon of Calc

OR

add 2 1/2 cups of mag after each 2 gallons of alk supplement and each 1 gallon of Calc?

[jdieck]

Originally posted by tangman99
I still have the question about adding the Mag solution:

So if I use Recipe 1 for calc and Recipe 2 for alk, do I:

You are really going to be using recipe 2 even with Calcium because you will be adding only half of the calcium amount per amount of Alkalinity so the Magnesium will be according to recipe 2
For recipe 2, you add 1/ 1/4 cups when you go through 1 gallon

Something to notice here is that your Magnesium is OK at 1350 ppm so you will not need Magnesium for a while.
When you are making adjustments you do not need to Add the Magnesium part.
That rule only apply after you are in maintenance.

[tangman99]

I added the 3 tsps of baking soda and tested it about 30 minutes later. The alk measured at 9.0 dkh. I did not test it before hand but assumed it was around 7. I'll see where I'm at tomorrow.

[jdieck]

I will be on travel all next week but I think you already go tthe hang of it. What is your PH?.

[tangman99]

Yeah, I've learned a lot from working with you on this. The PH is 8.1 or 8.2 ish

[jdieck]

Originally posted by tangman99
Yeah, I've learned a lot from working with you on this. The PH is 8.1 or 8.2 ish

Good, the baking soda is not affecting the PH much as I expected.

[tangman99]

Great! The best part is no Precipitation in the sump. I cleaned off the glass really well so I can see it if occurs any longer.

Have fun on your trip and thanks again for the help. I'll still post up my results in case others are having similar problems and have been following along.