An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement Article Posted - Page 2

firerock · #26 02/22/2006, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
The problem is that those recipes do not always tell me exactly what is in them. I had been hoping to do that, but then the discovery that the Seachem product was not ionically balanced made me worry about whether the others are, and if they are, what that balance actually is that they chose to use (and for that matter, how much magnesium is actually in them).

However, if you use 5 parts of the ESV or Kent additives and 2 parts of the Epsom salts (based on magnesium content), that will be pretty good.

This is what's listed for Kent Marine Tech M:

Contents:
Deionized water containing the following elements (as ions): magnesium, chlorine, sulfur, calcium, potassium, bromine, strontium, boron, fluorine, lithium, rubidium, iodine, iron, molybdenum, zinc, nickel, copper, manganese, vanadium, cesium, cobalt, tungsten, selenium, and chromium.

Based on these, do you think it is good to use or will it still be safer to use Magnesium Chloride Hexahydrate? I couldn't find anything on ESV's contents.

I have also found these on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Magnesium-chlori...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Magnesium-chlori...QQcmdZViewItem
Do you think they are safe to use?

Randy Holmes-Farley · #27 02/22/2006, 08:36 AM

Unfortunately, a list of chemicals doesn't adequately tell me how much of anything is in it, or whether it is ionically balanced or not.

I don't think it is "safer" to use my recipe, but it is cheaper.

Randy Holmes-Farley · #28 02/22/2006, 08:45 AM

Why wouldn't you add the magnesium part in smaller increments on a more regular schedule than simply after the alk and ca gallons are finished.

I suggest in my article that you can do that, especially if the tank is very small. The drop in magnesium between additions is reasonably small, so I decided that aquarists could do less work and add it less often. Folks can certainly add it mroe frequently in smaller portions if they want.

In a 100 gallon tank, 610 mL of Part 3 boosts magnesium by only 75 ppm. The 305 mL dose only boosts it by about 40 ppm. IMO, those variances are acceptable. Yes, they are larger for small tanks. Perhaps I could have made that point clearer.

so a 100gal mixed stocked tank @~1ml/gal/day of recipe 2 would be 100ml/day...so after about 38 days the gallon of alk and ca are finished and that's when I toss in 2.5 cups of the magnesium. but that does not consider the volume of the tank. I want to know what a suggested daily volume to volume ratio I should (or even weekly to keep levels more regular).

The dosing is, and should, be based on the calcification rate, not the tank volume. The use of a gallon of the calcium and alkalinity parts indicates the calcification rate.

Say I had only 10 gallon tank, then I would finish the gallon of alk and ca in 378 days, then I throw in 2.5 cups of mag...into a 10 gallon tank...it seems obsurd unless I'm missing something.

from the article:

Each time you finish adding a gallon of both parts of Recipe #1, add 610 mL (2 Â½ cups) of this stock solution. You can add it all at once or over time as you choose, depending on the aquarium's size and set up. Add it to a high flow area, preferably a sump. In a very small aquarium, or one without a sump, I suggest adding it slowly.

firerock · #29 02/23/2006, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

I don't think it is "safer" to use my recipe, but it is cheaper.

Thanks for your prompt reply.

I guess I am missing the point here...

It is just that the MagCl is really difficult to find in the West Coast, and my aquarium is too small (46g) to get a 50lb bag shipped to me from the East Coast (about $60 after shipping).

Guess I need to organize a group buy...

Randy Holmes-Farley · #30 02/23/2006, 08:54 AM

The only reason to use my recipes is cost. Otherwise, B-ionic and B-ionic magnesium are likely just as good (maybe better, maybe worse, as I've never seen an analysis of them).

johns · #31 02/23/2006, 09:18 AM

firerock-

I'm having trouble understanding who your comments are being addressed to. Using these solutions is simply a cost savings. Quite a bit of cost savings if you use a lot of it like I do. Previous to using this, I had been dosing over 60 mls a day of B-Ionic and still not maintaining Ca and Alk levels. B-Ionic is quite a cost when you use a gallon every other month or so.

Regarding the MgCl2, yes I should just break down and buy a 50lb bag and have it shipped out to me as well. I am just curious about the Kents and other solutions because you dont use nearly as much of it and so it is a reasonable alternative. And it's so easy to get hold of. Plus I still have a jug laying around

I just want to get away from using Epsom all the time for Mg.

firerock · #32 02/23/2006, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by johns
firerock-

I'm having trouble understanding who your comments are being addressed to.

Sorry for the confusion, I was talking to Randy.

I have asked a similar question to yours in another thread back in January before the improved version of his recipe came out.

At the time I was asking him if Seachem Magnisium would be a good alternative, but he told me it is composed mostly Epsom salt, so I am trying to see what other brands are better.

Randy Holmes-Farley · #33 02/23/2006, 05:43 PM

so I am trying to see what other brands are better.

ESV and Kent claim to be ionically balanced, and I have no reason to doubt them.

firerock · #34 02/23/2006, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by johns

Using these solutions is simply a cost savings. Quite a bit of cost savings if you use a lot of it like I do. Previous to using this, I had been dosing over 60 mls a day of B-Ionic and still not maintaining Ca and Alk levels. B-Ionic is quite a cost when you use a gallon every other month or so.

Regarding the MgCl2, yes I should just break down and buy a 50lb bag and have it shipped out to me as well. I am just curious about the Kents and other solutions because you dont use nearly as much of it and so it is a reasonable alternative. And it's so easy to get hold of. Plus I still have a jug laying around

I just want to get away from using Epsom all the time for Mg.

I am in a similar situation like you are, currently I does 40 mls a day of C-Balance. I have just added a couple more SPS frags in the past 2 weeks, and the Ca level has dropped down to 350-375 when I checked 3 days ago. I do agree with you that those commercially made 2-part solutions are very costly in the long run, that's why I looked into Randy's recipe.

Too bad we are not in the same area, otherwise we can share a 50lb bag.

My aquarium is much smaller than yours, only 46g with a HOB refugium (approx. 4 gallons) and no sump. So it is difficult to have a 50lb bag sitting around since it'll last me years and years. Like you I was also trying to steering away from dosing Epsom salt as the sole source for Mag due to concerns of Sulfate.

firerock · #35 02/23/2006, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
so I am trying to see what other brands are better.

ESV and Kent claim to be ionically balanced, and I have no reason to doubt them.

Thanks, Randy. As always, you are the greatest.

Randy Holmes-Farley · #36 02/24/2006, 08:30 AM

Thanks and Happy reefing.

tdsounds · #37 03/02/2006, 09:49 AM

Lots of great info guys. Especially on using the 2/7 parts of epson and 5/7 parts of esv magnesium or kents tech m magnesium. I'm just curious, why don't people just replace the epsom salt with one of the those magnesium solutions. Is there something in the epsom salts that we need? I know the cost will increase, but wouldn't the solution be much safer without the sulfate increase? Or b/c of the low dosage of epsom make increase very minimal that it would dramatically decrease the sulfate to where about 15% or 30% water changes a month would eliminate the sulfate buildup completely. I see that charts of using a 15% to 30% water changes by using the epsom salt by itself. In one year there is a 54% to 74% decrease in sulfate buildup. But I'm just curious about using the solution for a period of 3 years or more and want to make it safest as possible to dose this solution for years to come at the same time saving some $

Randy Holmes-Farley · #38 03/02/2006, 10:09 AM

Is there something in the epsom salts that we need?

Yes, and it is not a cost issue. The recipes as given in the improved recipe article (MAG Flake plus Epsom salts, or in this thread, with Epsom salts plus the commercial additives) are neutral toward chloride and sulfate. With the Epsom salts, the extra sulfate offsets all the chloride coming from the calcium chloride. Otherwise, the chloride rises over time relative to sulfate. Craig Bingman models that in these articles:

Simulating the Effect of Calcium Chloride and Sodium Bicarbonate Additions on Reef Systems
http://web.archive.org/web/200102102...io/default.asp

Additional Simulations: The Combined Effect Of Calcium Chloride
/Sodium Bicarbonate Additions And Water Exchanges
http://web.archive.org/web/200102102...io/default.asp

duec22 · #39 03/03/2006, 04:02 PM

On my 29gal I've got low cal. and alk. at 370ppm and 4dkH respectively. I'm going to have to add quite a bit of both part 1 and part2 from recipie B. My quiestion is should I do all of one then the other over a day or two or should I add small amounts of each over a 24 hour period.

Randy Holmes-Farley · #40 03/03/2006, 04:38 PM

You can boost those values each in one big shot just fine. I'd limit calcium to 100 ppm per day, and alkalinity additions are only limited by pH rises. Use unbaked baking soda for that alk boost.

duec22 · #41 03/03/2006, 04:51 PM

Thank your for the great advice, and for putting these recipies together.

Randy Holmes-Farley · #42 03/03/2006, 04:53 PM

You're quite welcome.

Happy Reefing.

tangblack · #43 03/15/2006, 05:22 AM

Randy i have a dosing pump that will dose 216ml / per 24hrs.
Will it be ok for receipt one to maintain my levels.
tank is stocked with Sps coral. 500gallon tank.

Randy Holmes-Farley · #44 03/15/2006, 08:29 AM

I don't know if 216 ml per day will be enough in such a large SPS tank. My guess is not.

tangblack · #45 03/15/2006, 01:40 PM

Randdy how could the recipes be made stronger so more cal and kh is added

Randy Holmes-Farley · #46 03/15/2006, 01:42 PM

Use Recipe 1, as it is more concentrated. The limitation is the solubility of the sodium carbonate. With a huge amount of stirring and/or boiling of it, you might get to twice as saturated, but I doubt it.

EricG · #47 03/16/2006, 12:37 PM

Randy:
I currently dose kalk with my tank. Is it reasonable to dose the 47,000 ppm Mg++ solution with kalk dosing?

If so, can you guess at a dose and frequency for adding Mg for those of us that maintain Ca and Alk by dripping Kalk?

Thanks

Eric

Randy Holmes-Farley · #48 03/16/2006, 12:43 PM

Yes, it is reasonable to use it, as long as it is the one using MAG Flake and not just Epsom salts (you do not have the offsetting chloride in the DIY two part to allow just using Epsom salts).

I think it would be better to determine the need and dose by testing, rather than trying to guess the need.

captbunzo · #49 03/16/2006, 05:39 PM

Randy & Friends...

You mention in the article about using the second recipe if you are using limewater. I was hoping you could share some more details on how the dosing instructions would change for using the Improved DIY Recipe if one was using limewater.

Can you shed some light on this for me?

Chrismo · #50 03/17/2006, 02:53 AM

I've been using the original recipe for about a year now, as well as dosing Kalkwasser, so I use Recipe2 for High PH.

I cant say that I do a lot of water changes, maybe 50% a year. Am I reading this right, that I have way to much sodium in my tank now? ?

So this recipe, and even the Magnesium Chloride one, are really meant to be used only with substantal and regular water changes?

Or am I reading this wrong? I hope so.

Any my tank is looking good
Chris