Rock "Cooking"--a dangerous trend or something worthwhile? - Page 5

Ereefic · #**101** 01/30/2006, 06:06 PM

3 experts left RC. Which one wasn't the expert?

inwall75 · #**102** 01/30/2006, 06:09 PM

I don't really care one way nor the other whether someone cooks rock or not. A few posts ago, I said learn the pros/cons of any method because nothing is perfect.

I have great respect for Randy due to his knowledge. I would consider him an expert in his field. I respect him even more because he tends to carefully weigh his recommendations.

Quote:

I have no doubt that the people behind the sandbed "feeding" had thousands of posts to their names and were therefor seen as knowledgeable.

One of the problems you are going to run into with your method of seeking consolidating the expert advice, is that one of the now-departed experts is the person who told us to cure on top of the sand and add additional food besides.

EDIT:

Quote:

One of the problems you are going to run into with your method of seeking consolidating the expert advice, is that one of the now-departed experts is the person who told us to cure on top of the sand and add additional food besides.

Good heavens....my English teachers must all be rolling over in their graves (if they are dead). Let me try this again.

Seeking to consolidate expert opinions is an interesting concept. However, you are going to have some difficulty. One of the experts that is no longer here is the person who told us to cure on top of our sandbeds. This same person also recommended target-feeding our sandbeds with sinking pellets during the curing process.

Sindjin · #**103** 01/30/2006, 06:16 PM

Quote:

I have no problem with this at all. My problem is that it's being pushed as THE option to newbies who don't know any better. I posted earlier that I have no problem with experienced reefers trying out alternative measures, but telling someone who has no husbandry skills that they need to go to such extremes is unfounded given that the problem is probably as simple as too much feeding or crappy skimmer maintainance. Just try browsing the general forums without seeing 10 or 15 cooking threads.

And NEWBIES tend to be the ones with poor husbandry practices, right? They usually learn from their poor husbandry mistakes, right? So why not promote Rock Cooking for the Newbie? Why not HELP them and give them an edge? That edge being Clean rock that wont clutter their new DSB.

I still see newbs "cycling" their rock in 2 weeks and figure "YAY! My rock is cycled. Let's add the sand!" Teaching them to cook rock initially will put them on the right track regardless of the type of set-up they want.

I agree with Middletonmark... you shouldn't bash something you haven't tried. I have cured rock in-tank with light. It takes an even more dedicated aquarist with strong husbandry skills to do this the right way, IMO.

But then again.... I prefer very clean rock.... some may want crud all over it.

Sindjin · #**104** 01/30/2006, 06:20 PM

Boat Racer,

Thanks for posting those pics!

DOes everyone realize that those buckets of crud came out of Rock that he had been curing in tank with light for 3 months? Even WITH good husbandry practices!
If you don't care whether or not all that crud will end up in your tank...thats up to you. Some of us want to do our best to keep our Reefs as clean as possible. Rock Cooking, IMO, DEFINES good husbandry.

bertoni · #**105** 01/30/2006, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by inwall75
PAB's (or PAO's) tend to live in the anaerobic area of sandbeds and LR. In fact, they liberate phosphorus from the CaCO3 and are partially responsible for the LR spitting out P. There's nothing we can do about them beyond avoiding P imports as much as possible and exporting as much P as possible.

I don't believe this last statement at all. There are many methods of dealing with phosphate in the water column. Various organisms can consume that phosphate, and they clearly do, at least in my tanks.

Ereefic · #**106** 01/30/2006, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bertoni
There are many methods of dealing with phosphate in the water column.

Care to share them with us?

bertoni · #**107** 01/30/2006, 06:31 PM

None of the pictures or horror stories about rock shedding really demonstrate much of anything, IMO. There's no evidence that dark-curing is any better an action long-term than simply putting the rock in the tank and working from there. I could probably have gotten similar pictures from my rock, which has all cured quite nicely in the tank, and in some cases on sandbeds.

In the short term, if anyone strongly prefers shedding in a tub, that's a fine choice, but it seems mostly esthetics to me.

bertoni · #**108** 01/30/2006, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ereefic
Care to share them with us?

I already did. There's also article in the chemistry forum page on phosphorus that gives more ideas.

Sindjin · #**109** 01/30/2006, 06:35 PM

Sindjin · #**110** 01/30/2006, 06:36 PM

Quote:

There's no evidence that dark-curing is any better an action long-term than simply putting the rock in the tank and working from there.

You're right.
Cooking Rock is EASIER and CHEAPER in the Long Run, however.

finneganswake · #**111** 01/30/2006, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sindjin
And NEWBIES tend to be the ones with poor husbandry practices, right? They usually learn from their poor husbandry mistakes, right? So why not promote Rock Cooking for the Newbie? Why not HELP them and give them an edge? That edge being Clean rock that wont clutter their new DSB.

That's a fair question, but my answer is that I think VERY few long-term problems in this hobby are related to live rock. I know people who have made horrible mistakes with curing that managed to recover in a matter of months. Maybe it's instant gratification--I suppose to many people a month or two is too long to wait. IMO, if this is truly about the newbie, instead of focusing on an issue that really isn't that central to the success of a tank (sorry, but I've got a feeling that if you polled a group of people who have tanks in the 10+ years range, very few, if any, will tell you that live rock is one of the issues that they've had problems with), why don't you focus on stocking--I'd be willing to bet that 90% of newbie crashes have nothing to do with live rock and EVERYTHING to do with the fact that there are 8 fish and 30 corals in a 50g one week after the tank has cured. I credit my success while a newbie with the fact that I was told over and over, "Take it slowly."

bertoni · #**112** 01/30/2006, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sindjin
You're right.
Cooking Rock is EASIER and CHEAPER in the Long Run, however.

That's your opinion. Mine is quite different. I see nothing cheaper about dark curing, for certain, and I find it easier to set up my rock once and be done with it.

inwall75 · #**113** 01/30/2006, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bertoni
I don't believe this last statement at all. There are many methods of dealing with phosphate in the water column. Various organisms can consume that phosphate, and they clearly do, at least in my tanks.

LOL....

I always get myself in trouble when I type short posts. Yeah, they do liberate P. They literally dissolve it off of the LR with enzymes. Nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria do this too. (I think it's called phosphatase but this is off the top of my head so don't put too much weight on it.)

You are also correct. Most of this liberated P NEVER makes it to the water column (or at least not for long). Other bacteria, microalgaes, macroalgaes, hop on it like white on rice. Since most of our test kits can only test for PO4, we don't really get a sense of how much total P we have. Sorry for being Mr. Obviousman here.

I stand by my statement that P imports should be minimized as much as possible and P exports should be maximized as much as possible. P tends to accumulate in our tanks because our exports are often not able to keep up with our imports. When you overload your biological filter, you end up with problem algae. A lot of the feeding of the algae is P coming right out of the LR. No one minds it when another bacterium grabs it....however, when an algal spore grabs it, it really gets our attention.

kentrob11 · #**114** 01/30/2006, 06:47 PM

What do you guys think of cooking rock to be rid of Majano plagues? I don't have any algea problems, but My tank is absolutely loaded with Majanos and tulip anemones. It's so bad that they actually look like algea! I was going to take all of my rock out and torch every anemone I can find and then cook it for a month or two, checking for survivors everytime I swished and moved to new salt water....thoughts?

finneganswake · #**115** 01/30/2006, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bertoni
That's your opinion. Mine is quite different. I see nothing cheaper about dark curing, for certain, and I find it easier to set up my rock once and be done with it.

Yeah, baby, yeah

bertoni · #**116** 01/30/2006, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by inwall75
I stand by my statement that P imports should be minimized as much as possible and P exports should be maximized as much as possible. P tends to accumulate in our tanks because our exports are often not able to keep up with our imports.

Again, my disagreement was with the last sentence. I'm aware of the mineralization-demineralization processes in ecosystems. They are discussed frequently in the literature, and I've posted references to relevant articles in another thread.

As far as your state that phosphorus tends to accumulate in our tank, that is not necessarily true for all tanks, and I see no long-term benefit of rock cooking, really. I suppose an aquarist could choose to overload a filtration system and try to deal with the problem by cooking the rock every so often. I wouldn't do it that way, and I see no reason that such an approach should be recommended for every aquarist as the clearly superior choice, which some, but not all, people have been recommending.

MiddletonMark · #**117** 01/30/2006, 06:52 PM

But while I see use in cooking rock, I've re-habbed some `old rock' with it + been happy with all that survived ... I just can't agree with a one-size-fits-all statement like:

Quote:

Originally posted by Sindjin
And NEWBIES tend to be the ones with poor husbandry practices, right? They usually learn from their poor husbandry mistakes, right? So why not promote Rock Cooking for the Newbie?

Why use a different tool, when a hammer works for everything?

IME, different people want different things from their tanks.

I can't believe that absolutely every creature makes it through without fail when cooking rock - just as I can't agree with those who say that a large % of life will die from it.

But to think that, in this diverse hobby of seahorses, mantis tanks, and Acropora-monocrop-tanks, planted SW tanks ... that someone might just want some unusual life there?
That every single creature, without fail, will live through cooking?

I tend to side with Randy, and Weatherson's synopses of the process ... the middle of the road.

This is a tool, a very useful one [despite what some would like to admit] ... and is appropriate for certain circumstances. Like any tool, it is not appropriate for every circumstance [despite what some would like to admit] ... esp. in this hobby of idiosyncratic aquaria + aquarists.

I've done it, it was quite useful on 5+ year old rock from a FOWLR ... and for dying/dead rock picked up from someone's porch the day after they took their tank down.

But of the many ways to cure new live rock, cooking isn't my ideal.

In the end, if I'm not exporting more than I stock/import ... I'll have a problem, cooked rock or no.
And if I'm exporting [or able to] greater than my stocking/import ... then it won't really matter in the long run, will it?

IMO, dark curing/cooking is a useful tool ... but to think it's all things, to all people, the `answer for everything' in this hobby - well, that would be a first.

People cure their rock a dozen different methods ... and all have success. Why is one method superior, if they all can lead to success?
[similarly, why is one method so hated, if it can also lead to success?]

PUGroyale · #**118** 01/30/2006, 06:53 PM

Hey Finn... Just for PO4's and giggles maybe you could outline the dangers in this dangerous trend...

even the thread title is meant to inflame

finneganswake · #**119** 01/30/2006, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by inwall75
A lot of the feeding of the algae is P coming right out of the LR. No one minds it when another bacterium grabs it....however, when an algal spore grabs it, it really gets our attention.

I don't know if I buy this. Although I tend to dislike this term as a meaningless buzzword, I guess for the sake of argument my rock "sheds" like crazy. I call it food for my cleanup crew (the cucumbers would starve without it, as I don't overfeed). I don't have algae problems--the worst thing that has ever hit my tank was a one-time clump of bubble algae that didn't measure more than probably 3/4" across.

finneganswake · #**120** 01/30/2006, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ereefic
3 experts left RC. Which one wasn't the expert?

Who left besides Eric and Anthony?

Hobster · #**121** 01/30/2006, 07:01 PM

Dr Ron.

OK, I'll try again.
For all those who have cooked their rock, What have you done with your corals to remove the rock? and how have the corals and fish held up in a tank with no rock??

Boat Racer · #**122** 01/30/2006, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hobster
Dr Ron.

OK, I'll try again.
For all those who have cooked their rock, What have you done with your corals to remove the rock? and how have the corals and fish held up in a tank with no rock??

Well I AM cooking mine and here is a pic of my corals and some L/R that I kept aside for Bio.These rocks are going back to the LFS when the tank is back together after cooking.They are mostly small frags because like I said a hundred times this is a three month old system.I would think that useing the same method would work fine on a mature coral collection.Yes they would have to cut or chisled of their base to be cooked.Most people who have beautifull tank full of mature corals wouldnt have to cook their rocks anyway.They probably have all the high dollar phos reactors,cal reactors etc,, to keep their healthy reef.

inwall75 · #**123** 01/30/2006, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bertoni
Again, my disagreement was with the last sentence. I'm aware of the mineralization-demineralization processes in ecosystems. They are discussed frequently in the literature, and I've posted references to relevant articles in another thread.

As far as your state that phosphorus tends to accumulate in our tank, that is not necessarily true for all tanks, and I see no long-term benefit of rock cooking, really. I suppose an aquarist could choose to overload a filtration system and try to deal with the problem by cooking the rock every so often. I wouldn't do it that way, and I see no reason that such an approach should be recommended for every aquarist as the clearly superior choice, which some, but not all, people have been recommending.

Jonathon,

The bacterial population grows, the microalgal communities grow, cyanobacterial population grows, etc. over time. Obviously, this is a good thing. It keeps problem algaes at bay because all of these communities are binding and storing P. Larger communities indicates an accumulation of P. Eventually, a "balance" is achieved hopefully whereby your imports don't exceed your exports. With good husbandry, you can maintain this balance for a long time.

I see value in cooking rock in many circumstances. I might even recommend it to someone occassionally if I think it will help them. I have not told everybody they have to do it nor will I ever.

rm · #**124** 01/30/2006, 07:17 PM

From a rookie:
I have a green hair algae problem. I've read most of the recent posts from others with the problem. I just want to thank all of you for speaking out loud about your opinions like this. I can see that there are many options available to me. I do not want to cook my rock, I want beat this without cooking it. Here is what I've tried so far:

Added a yellow tang (recommended by someone) - Doesn't touch it

Added a Foxface (recommended by someone) - Doesn't touch it and gets a daily beating from tangzilla

Added a lawnmower blennie (rbs) - Doesn't touch it but does bite at the hair algae free areas of the rock (might be keeping it at bay)

Added several "real" mexican turbo snails (they are eating it slowly)

Added a tuxedo urchin (blue stripes/copper spines) Jury is still out but he seems to be eating it.

Adding a scooter blenny tonight (sister in-law likes hair algae on the back of her tank, she recently bought two scooters and they mowed it down). BTW she has no hair algae on her rocks. I think the back wall is sucking all the nutrients out and preventing it from getting anywhere else.

Cut back on my lighting by 1hr a day (down to 9hrs total, don't think this will help much but it is obvoius that the algae isn't growing in the shade)

Cut back on the amount of food - fish are getting agressive towards each other, shrimp and emerald crabs also, might return to normal feeding to avoid a bloodbath. I don't think I was feeding too much to begin with but reducing nutrients was my goal.

Ordered a phosban reactor - this makes too much sense not to do it (had added Marine SAT recommended by LFS but the theory is the same in my opinoin, starve something the algae needs so I went with Phosban instead)

Started picking off as much of the hair algae as possible

My tank does not look as bad as the posted picture but I think I'm about two weeks away from it if I don't get this under control. I do have hair algae in patches on every rock in the tank.

No need to reply to this post, just letting all of you know I have considered what's been said, respect all of your opinions and will admit to it if I end up cooking my rock. I hope I did offend those who do but I haven't given up yet and if I do cook It'll be because all else has failed and it was the only sensible thing left to do.

Thanks

bertoni · #**125** 01/30/2006, 07:17 PM

Well, I suspect actually that after a reasonably short time, the bacterial, algal, and cyanobacterial populations reach a relative steady state, given a bound area in which to grow, etc. That might be what you meant, though.

I wasn't trying to say that you were recommending that all live rock be cooked, so my apologies if that was the interpretation. I have already posted some reasons (in other threads) people might choose to cook rock, so I don't consider that it is always a bad idea.