just how exactly can i get my alk/cal stablize???

[dzhuo]

some background: i have a 10G nano. it's been running for about 4 months now. i have a derasa clam, a couple small frags of monti cap, a christmas tree worm, some shroom, a small frag of yellow leather coral and two alveopora. i also have a very small (half a gallon) fuge with some chaeto. the tank doesn't have much coraline. the tank also has an autotop off where i drip limewater; drip rate is about one drop per 6 seconds and a 1 gallon container lasts about 4 days.

i measure water parameters very frequently (3 times a week), the following is a typical sequence of parameters:

day 1:
dkh : 10.2
cal: 310

day 2:
dKH: 7.0
cal: 400
action: added a cup of kent superbuffer and 6ml of part B

day 3:
dKH: 9.2
cal: 370
action: added a cup of kent superbuffer (morning). added 3ml of part A and 37ml of part B (night)

day 4:
dKH: 8.0
cal: 410
action: added a cup of kent superbuffer and 12ml of part B

day 5:
dKH: 10.5
cal: 390
action: added 2.5ml of part A and 25ml of part B

day 6:
dKH: 7.2
cal: 405
action: added a cup of kent superbuffer and 6ml of part B

pH is always within 8.0 - 8.2 and sg is always at 0.125.

the problem is that alk swings alot from day to day. i can't figure out why. there is absolutely nothing in my tank that can suck up so much alk to cause it to go from 10.5 a day to 7.2 the next day. Randy, i have read almost all the typical articles you posted here about alk/cal and i though i have followed all the steps (like dripping limewater and b-ionic) neccessary to maintain the chemistry but nothing works. it keep going from high to low to high to low from day to day. 4 months now i have been trying to find out why and i am very tire of adding and checking on a daily basis. cal also swings but it's not as bad as alk.

i am 100% sure that this is cause by my "action" trying to "fix" those problems. can you spot anything obvious that i am doing wrong? i mean should i add one chemical at a time? will adding kent superbuffer and b-ionic at the same time cause some rare stuff? please help me out. thanks!

btw, salt is IO, i use only distill water and all tests are performed by salifert test kits. 10% water change weekly.

[RustySnail]

When you add A/B you should try to add equal volumes. Look @ day5; Alk/Ca looked good but then you only added 2.5ml of A and 25ml of b. I understand that you are trying to raise Ca and keep Alk stable; looks like you had a 15ppm or so net gain in Ca but lost Alk. try and get a good starting point and then make small changes. Also consider that testkits arent 100% accurate; +/-10ppm is not uncommon with Ca test. The Derasa Clam is likely using the Alk/Ca in its shell growth; in addition to coralline growth.

I would try and maintain a stable Alk with A/B; adding equal amount of Ca (but not testing Ca daily). Test your Alk once per day and try to find the volume needed to have the same level the next day.

Use this calculator to help determine how much your A/B addition will increase Alk:

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

I did a quick back-calculation using this calculator. Assuming the net volume of water is 7 gallons; I got the following for your day5/6 changes

dKH loss from 10.5 to 7.2 dKH would require 16ml of Alk (Recipe 1); so it looks like you should have dosed 19ml's or so. That's probably too much for one shot; consider doing it in 2 doses to keep alk levels from going too high.

Ca increase from 390 to 405 shows you over-dosed by 10.7ml (which is OK because of the situation). But this shows/confirms that 14.3ml's were utilized. That's close to the net need for Alk (balanced uptake of 15-20mls A/B per day).

Based on these numbers I would add 7-10 ml of each part twice per day; and keep the Alk level between 9-11 dKH.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree that I'd only add equal volumes of the two parts of the two part additive, and try to add nothing else.

there is absolutely nothing in my tank that can suck up so much alk to cause it to go from 10.5 a day to 7.2 the next day.

Maybe not, but let's try adding exactly 10 mL of each part every morning and see what that does for you. If we need to go up or down we easily can.

[dzhuo]

Originally posted by RustySnail
When you add A/B you should try to add equal volumes. Look @ day5; Alk/Ca looked good but then you only added 2.5ml of A and 25ml of b. I understand that you are trying to raise Ca and keep Alk stable; looks like you had a 15ppm or so net gain in Ca but lost Alk.

yes because cal is low so i added 25ml of part B. that's what this calculator recommanded. alk, on the other hand, is good so i added 2.5ml only because that's what the b-ionic instruction recommanded. am i doing something wrong? should i always add the same amount of 2 parts regardless of what the calculator suggest?

try and get a good starting point and then make small changes.

yes that's what i am trying to accomplish but so far, i have failed badly

Based on these numbers I would add 7-10 ml of each part twice per day; and keep the Alk level between 9-11 dKH.

ok. maybe i need to do that. oh btw yes the derasa clam grows fast! it keeps growing new shell which is good

[dzhuo]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Maybe not, but let's try adding exactly 10 mL of each part every morning and see what that does for you. If we need to go up or down we easily can. [/B]

ok. i will do that starting tonight. i will added 10ml of part A and part B each day and see what happen. i will post parameters. it doesn't matter if i do it at night or morning right?

thanks!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Morning is better as it is adding high pH additives when the pH in the tank is lowest, so that chances of the pH getting too high is reduced.

[dzhuo]

when the light is off, it's when the tank's pH is lowest? i have a fuge which is lighted in reverse lighting cycle as the main display, will that help to stablize pH? i perfer at night because otherwise i have to woke up earlier in the morning

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A reverse lit refugium will help miimize the day/night pH swing.

Have you measured pH on the system?

[dzhuo]

yes i have measure pH everytime i check alk/cal. it's always somewhere between 8.0 - 8.2.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Then you can probably do it in the evening. I'd check the pH about 15 minutes after you add it to see how high it is getting.

[dzhuo]

ok, i will do it tonight and post numbers. thanks Randy!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Let us know what happens. good luck.

[dzhuo]

ok, i finally took measure of tank parameters (the numbers below are BEFORE i added any additive. it's a continuation from day 6 in my original post):

day 7:
alk: 8.0dkh
cal: 380
pH: 8.0

normally, i would add a cup of kent superbuffer and use the chemistry calculator to calculate how much part B i need to add. however, since both RustySnail and Randy recomanded that i should add equal part A and part B, i am going to take Randy's suggestion to add 10ml of each.

Action: added 10ml of part A and 10ml of part B

i will continue to repeat the same "Action" until Sunday and then i will measure again.

Randy,
that's the plan correct?

thanks!

[RustySnail]

You might re-test after 48 hours and make any adjustments based on 2-days of depletion (or gain).

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy,
that's the plan correct?

That sounds good to me, yes.

If after a couple of days, the alkalinity has dropped significantly, then you might up the dose to 15 ml of each part each day.

[dzhuo]

ok, i will test after 48 hours (2 days) and see what the levels are. thanks!

[dzhuo]

ok, since RustySnail and Randy are both concern about high pH, i checked pH again. it's a little difficult to see where pH is at using those color code so i asked my family members for input. interestingly, they all thought it's at least 8.4 and my father even say it's close to 8.6. i guess it's a little high. one of my alveopora looks a little stressed today but i am sure if it's becaue the high pH or not. i didn't add any additive today and i didn't measure alk or cal. is there an easy way to bring my pH down a little bit? i don't want to add anything right now because it might bring my pH even higher.

i did mention i am dripping kalk right?

please let me know what i should do to lower pH a little. thanks!

[RustySnail]

If your pH is up at 8.4-8.6 (before dosing the A/B) you probably should be dosing "Recipe 2" of Randy's A/B. And/or drip less-than saturated limewater while adding more Ca/Alk via A/B.

Another option might be to add vinegar to the limewater to increase it's Ca/Alk while reducing the pH 'overshoot'. I have not done this (yet); and it might not be recommended for a small volume system. Just mentioning that it is an 'option'.

The first thing I would try is switching from Recipe 1 to Recipe 2. You will need to make a new batch of the A-Part according to Randy's instructions. You can re-use the B-Part from Recipe 1; just remember to add 1/2 as much as the amount of A you are dosing (or dilute the B-Part by 50% to convert it to Recipe 2).

The net amount of A/B you add with Recipe 2 will be double that of Recipe 1. So if you stick to the 10ml's; double it to 20ml's so that you get the same amount of Alk/Ca going into the system as before.

Have you ever tested Mg level in this tank?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

More aeration will also help bring down the pH, as can vinegar in the limewater or soda water added directly to the aquarium.

This article has details:

High pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.htm

[dzhuo]

now i need to figure out the whole "Recipe" thing? can i avoid doing that? it's like there are gazillion chemicals that i need to buy or make and take forever to understand everything before i can have a reasonably balanced system. does it really have to be that difficult? i would like to use vinegar to just bring my pH down a little bit. how can i do that? how much do i need to add? what kind of vinegar can i use? can i use those that my mom use to cook?

thanks!

[dzhuo]

yes i have tested Mg level but only once. it's somewhere between 1280 - 1300

[dzhuo]

so according to the article:

These data serve as the basis for the recommendation that I make later in this article of using 1 mL of distilled white vinegar per gallon of aquarium water to achieve an initial pH drop of about 0.3 pH units.

and assume my pH is at 8.45. i want the pH to be at 8.2, that's a 0.25 reduction. since my tank is 10G, it looks like i need to add about 7ml of vinegar?

thanks!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I wouldn't do anything unless the pH is above 8.5.

But your interpretation of the math is correct, although a 10 gallon tank may not have 10 gallons of water in it.

[RustySnail]

Originally posted by dzhuo
now i need to figure out the whole "Recipe" thing? can i avoid doing that? it's like there are gazillion chemicals that i need to buy or make and take forever to understand everything before i can have a reasonably balanced system.

I'm sorry... I mis-read your original post. For some reason I thought that you were using the home-made A/B that Randy developed. It's simple to make; you just use Baking Soda for the A-part and Calcium Chloride (Dowflake or Turbo Calcium) for the B-part. The difference between the two recipes he provides is that one recipe is made with baked baking soda (washing soda); and the other is made with straight baking soda (at lesser concentration). The washing soda recipe will raise pH when added; the baking soda recipe will tend to depress the pH a bit.

Here is the article that describes how to make this very inexpensive 2-part; it saves a bunch of money when if you are using ~1/2 gallon per week (referring to my tank here)

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...l2004/chem.htm

[dzhuo]

Randy,
ok. i will check pH again tonight and see where it's at. i have stopped adding additive as of last night. should i continue with the original plan?

RustySnail,
i really perfer not to prepare for home-made A/B if i can just use B-Ionic 2 parts. I am currently using the 2 parts and dripping limewater ( parepared by pickling lime). if i go with the original plan which is to add 10ml of part A and part B each day. will there by any problem?

thanks guys. i think i am almost there.