Carbon source for denitrifying bacteria

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe. Something is limiting the algae growth. It could be phosphorus, nitrogen, iron, or possibly, but less likely, something else.

[BobB]

Originally posted by Bomber
But carbon is hard to be limiting.

Carbon dioxide

sodium bi-carbon-ate

calcium carbon-ate

etc

Bomber- While true, all of the above contain carbon, they are not at all the preferred carbon source for most bacteria, particularly heterotrophs. I would have said acetate (vinegar) as the most likely carbon source candidate of marine bacteria, then sucrose, and finally ethanol, although none of these is likely to be found in the marine environment at significant levels. I think a valid case can be made to assume that the carbon-to-nitrogen balance, which is very important to bacterial physiology, is skewed towards nitrogen in our reefs. When carbon is limiting, bacterial growth rate slows down and metabolic functions are reduced, to conserve carbon. Theoretically, and I want to emphasize that I don't have data here, adding vodka (ethanol) would return the C-N levels to balance, and improve bacterial respiration and growth. If the balance is skewed toward much more carbon than nitrogen, bacteria will switch from their preferred nitrogen source, amino acids and ammonia, to secondary sources, like nitrate (species dependent, of course). So, as I see it, adding vodka could (in theory) (1) increase the bacterial population and (2) favor utilization of nitrate. Of course, I could be dead wrong, so caveat emptor and happy reefing.

BobB

[Navyblue]

Hi Bob,

What will happen if C become in excess and N and P become limitting in the aquarium?

[BobB]

Originally posted by Navyblue
Hi Bob,

What will happen if C become in excess and N and P become limitting in the aquarium?

A lot depends on the composition of the bacterial community, but (that said), with an over-abundance of C, many bacteria get rid of the excess carbon by producing extracellular "slimes". These slimes are often carbon-rich and one means by which the bacteria balance out the C-N-P ratio. Slime may mean lots of skimmate, although I'm guessing at that.

Cheers,

BobB

[Navyblue]

Hmmm... seems to explain all the observation...

[Navyblue]

Just another update, this is probably my last as nothing interesting is happening, till there is something worth mentioning.

Day 1
15 ppm nitrate
pH 8.1

Day 1-6
6 ml saturated sucrose solution

Day 6
0 ppm nitrate
pH 8.2

Day 6-15
3 ml saturated sucrose solution

Day 16
0 ppm nitrate
pH 8.3

Day 16-17
1.5 ml saturated sucrose solution

Day 18-24
1.5 ml xylitol solution (Except for day 20 that I forgot )

Day 24
0 ppm nitrate
pH 8.5 (dripping kalkwasser, and a little too fast)

Day 24 to 36
1.5 ml xylitol solution

Day 37
1.5 ml xylitol solution
1 six line wrasse added
1 blood shrimp added

Day 38
1.5 ml xylitol solution
5 Cerith snails added
1 black brittle star added

Day 39
1.5 ml xylitol solution
2 Sarcophytons and a corallimorph collony removed

Day 40 to 42
1.5 ml xylitol solution

Day 43
1.5 ml xylitol solution
5 Cerith snails added
1 Hydnopora added.

Day 44
1.5 ml xylitol solution
0 ppm nitrate
0 ppm phosphate
pH 8.5

I begin to test for phosphate as Randy asked about phosphate, it is measured by Salifert test kit.

I didn't decrease the dosage further, as I plan to head to another direction, that is increasing bioload. Currently I have 4 fishes, 5 shrimps and 2 starfishes, which I think has hit its limit. I have another 2 small fishes in my quarantine waiting to be introduced. I'll see how stable is it to have a high bio load and a high "bacteria load".

The browing in my yellow sarcophyton seems to be reduced after switching to xylitol. But probably because of the switch in lighting from 150w PC to 20000K 150w MH. Overall speaking the corals look good.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by BobB
Bomber- While true, all of the above contain carbon, they are not at all the preferred carbon source for most bacteria, particularly heterotrophs.

I could be dead wrong, so caveat emptor and happy reefing.

BobB

Bob you're not dead wrong but there is something you're missing in salt as opposed to fresh water environments.

Carbon is a common limiter in fresh, not in salt. Fresh doesn't have the buffer system in place that salt does. If these sources of carbon are limiting in salt, you will know it by the lack of diversity not only on a macro but especially on a micro level.

Also these sources of carbon are interchangeable on a micro level. Bacteria leak.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Carbon is a common limiter in fresh, not in salt.

I think your confusing carbon atom source with energy from carbon source.

Surely you do not claim that adding sugar or other carbon energy sources does not drive bacterial growth in marine tank water???

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Surely you do not claim that adding sugar or other carbon energy sources does not drive bacterial growth in marine tank water???

Nooooo, did you miss something? LOL

and don't call me Shirley............

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Bomber;

You wrote;

"Carbon is a common limiter in fresh, not in salt. Fresh doesn't have the buffer system in place that salt does. If these sources of carbon are limiting in salt, you will know it by the lack of diversity not only on a macro but especially on a micro level."

Starting at the beginning, how is one to know if their bacteria are diverse? Should reefers care?

[cudaxtreme]

side track abit

does dosing sugar and running GAC makes it counter productive?

[Habib]

GAC will not adsorb much sugar.

[cudaxtreme]

Thanks habib!

[trilinearmipmap]

So for those of us who dose kalk, is this one more reason to add vinegar to the kalkwasser (besides increasing the calcium and alk delivered)?

[Navyblue]

It probably is but I guess that is not quite an intended purpose, and there were also side effects.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So for those of us who dose kalk, is this one more reason to add vinegar to the kalkwasser (besides increasing the calcium and alk delivered)?

If you think bacterial growth is desirable, yes. If not, then no.

[boxfishpooalot]

I like this thread, so im bumping it up, despite the fact that its 2 years old...

Id like to add some information based on my tank and sugar dosing,

Test kit- Salifert

Starting tank conditions:
No3-150ppm or so, deep purple(salifert)
Po4-around 3ppm(salifert)

The tank is fowlr, and has some star polyps and mushrooms.I have about 100gallons acutal water after displacment. There are about 16 fish in there. Some large tangs(5) and some small, chromis, flame angel, boxfish.


Today the nitrates are 100ppm Im assuming based on the latest No3 test(less than deep purple) so they are reducing. The skimmer is basically much darker and dryer. The skimmer is a octopuss needle wheel 200(30"tallx8" diamter)

Po4 -no measurments yet because I ran out of HCL the test comes with.Im assuming they will drop with No3.Will test later.



Things I noticed:
after adding Silica sand for the soluble release of silica sand,I experienced a diatom bloom covering the walls and bottom of my sump only.Minor in the tank where some silica was dropped. The sump is lit by a 400watt metal halide 24/7. Upon adding the sugar to the tank at a dose of 1tsp daily(actual measures)
I noticed that cynaobacteria is starting to cover the sump and replace the diatoms. Perhaps silica is runing low. I dont know.

So the cyano is taking up the sugar I guess, or its due to the redfield ratio. Bacteria blooms a slight haze, and then reduces.

I just dump the sugar in daily directly to the sump. But I think a slow continual dose would be great. but this is not possible because the meauseres could be too much at once through evaportion automatic. Because of this I would worry too much addtion at once, causeing oxygen deprivation. Dont want to kill the fish.

I did notice that some fish scratch slightly. But it could be the sugar, or the fact that im adding kalk water now (ph changes) and one time the fresh water added 2gallons in 10 minutes. Otherwise , the fish appear fine.

I will keep a close watch on the sponge growth. Its an encrusting pink sponge. I imagine it would take advantage of the bacterial mass now present.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Did you notice any color change in corals? When I dosed sugar years ago, some browned up, presumably from zoox population growth.

[boxfishpooalot]

What corals darkened? SPS?

My tank has no sps(obviously they die) just star polyps and some mushrooms. The shrooms are brown always so I dont notice a difference.

The star polyps remain pink, but they have been reducing in size since I had them. Crappy pic in gallery. I think its too soon to say. Will keep you informed.

The fish stopped scratching as of today.

How would zoox increase from sugar? Maybee its a bacterial coating on the corals mucus. They do consume that mucus. Maybee they just turned brown to reflect less light so they can grow from photosythesis,because the bacteria reduced nutrients very low. Brown=less light reflection. More light means more food.An example would be the chamelion. It turns bright white when overheating(to reflect light), and dark brown when cold. Kinda neat.

Is browing corals a big thing with vodka/sugar?

I also noticed a tremendous amount of bulbbles on the side of the glass. Prob denitrification.

I want to increase my dosage to 2tsp daily first thing when the lights go on.

I should also mention of ph reduction. Somtimes i notice a drop of .10 due to bacteria I guess.

[REEF-DADDY]

Dayum dude 150 ppm? I think you need to fix up your husbandry!

Originally posted by boxfishpooalot
I like this thread, so im bumping it up, despite the fact that its 2 years old...

Id like to add some information based on my tank and sugar dosing,

Test kit- Salifert

Starting tank conditions:
No3-150ppm or so, deep purple(salifert)
Po4-around 3ppm(salifert)

The tank is fowlr, and has some star polyps and mushrooms.I have about 100gallons acutal water after displacment. There are about 16 fish in there. Some large tangs(5) and some small, chromis, flame angel, boxfish.


Today the nitrates are 100ppm Im assuming based on the latest No3 test(less than deep purple) so they are reducing. The skimmer is basically much darker and dryer. The skimmer is a octopuss needle wheel 200(30"tallx8" diamter)

Po4 -no measurments yet because I ran out of HCL the test comes with.Im assuming they will drop with No3.Will test later.



Things I noticed:
after adding Silica sand for the soluble release of silica sand,I experienced a diatom bloom covering the walls and bottom of my sump only.Minor in the tank where some silica was dropped. The sump is lit by a 400watt metal halide 24/7. Upon adding the sugar to the tank at a dose of 1tsp daily(actual measures)
I noticed that cynaobacteria is starting to cover the sump and replace the diatoms. Perhaps silica is runing low. I dont know.

So the cyano is taking up the sugar I guess, or its due to the redfield ratio. Bacteria blooms a slight haze, and then reduces.

I just dump the sugar in daily directly to the sump. But I think a slow continual dose would be great. but this is not possible because the meauseres could be too much at once through evaportion automatic. Because of this I would worry too much addtion at once, causeing oxygen deprivation. Dont want to kill the fish.

I did notice that some fish scratch slightly. But it could be the sugar, or the fact that im adding kalk water now (ph changes) and one time the fresh water added 2gallons in 10 minutes. Otherwise , the fish appear fine.

I will keep a close watch on the sponge growth. Its an encrusting pink sponge. I imagine it would take advantage of the bacterial mass now present.

[boxfishpooalot]

this is not husbandy, but a result of tons of fish! 5 tangs in 100gal volume of water is rediculus.my girlfriends fault. a dog face, boxfish. Those fish are huge producers with a huge appatite.

Any suggestions? My husbandry is ok I guess. clean filter bags daily. Skimmer cup cleaned every second day. I have 16 fish not my fault.

I have a refugium with 400 watts of metal halide! The chaeto doubles in size every 5days-10days. I dose iron.

My feeding is rediculous though. I will admit. I go through 1pack of nori,1 large pack mysid , and a can flake food every month.
Cost me about 50bucks a month.

If I could I would do water changes every 4 days. But we all know that is not a good way to reduce N compounds.and P.

So im trying sugar.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

To be honest, I do not remember which corals browned with sugar and which with iodate addition, but between them there was 1 SPS browning, 1 tan polyp, and one additional coral. I'd have to search through really threads to recall exactly.

[boxfishpooalot]

well, ill update of what i noticed so far.

Phophate appears to have gone down a little, from 3ppm to maybee 1ppm.

Nitrate does not look any different. Maybee whent down a little. its hard to tell.

What i did notice was an increase in bubble production in the sandbed.

The skimmer is still foaming like crazy.The foam comes out so dry that I have to add some oil into the cup to collapse the foam as it drains over the top.Otherwise the skimmer foams out the breather holes all over the carpet!

Im still dosing 2tsp a day approx.

Some of the fish have strange bruises on them, possibly from fighting. I dont know if its sugar releated.

The water always has a little fog to it.

Some of the rocks appear to turn white in spots. Almost as if the hair algae is dissapearing in spots. But it could be my starfish or diadema sea urchin mowing it down.

Im getting an increased growth of hair algae in spots, especially higher flow areas.

One night my yellow tang was hovering near the surface. I suspect O2 depletion. I turned the lights on 1 hour early for O2. I cut my dose back because of this.

star polyps and mushrooms appear the same. Actually i think the mushrooms are reproducing. The color has not changed.

Other than that its not a miricle cure to my tank.

Im now contemplating as to add a larger refugium (300gallons) so I can grow some serious macro algae.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree that it doesn't sound like a promising result.

[boxfishpooalot]

what do you think, 300gallon refugium with a 400 watt halide? You think I could keep nutrients low with that? That would also up my total water volume!

You think I could get to zero?