my diy needle wheel dart pump

[spazz]

Originally posted by Herbert T. Kornfeld
150watts...>>>eat my shorts BK!

now thats funny!

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showp...p?photo=145358

The specs for making a bypass venturi with more adjustability^^^.

[spazz]

Originally posted by Herbert T. Kornfeld
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showp...p?photo=145358

The specs for making a bypass venturi with more adjustability^^^.

i will think on this one. first i have to figure out where in the heck im going to store 75 g of salt water thats in the test tank! lol then i can work on a beter more refined version of the impellor . after that then i can get to the venturie design. that might work well. we will see. i want to see if sequence will send me a couple of impellors to work with. i think the 4300 would work better. what do you think? i also have to work on getting my 20" acrylic tube home so i can see how it works in a shorter fatter design. say 20" diam 4 ft tall.ya think it would work? or do i need to tear into my second dart and modify that one too?

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

I was going to go 18" square, 72" tall on mine...thats about the same area as a 20"tube. I think 6' tall can be done...mount the pump higher, then angle its output downward with a long-elbow downward and 2' from the bottom of the chamber. What gets me going isnt so much the bubble production...heck, BK can keep that title...I want height and dwell time...ok, and as any bubbles...lol.

[rufio173]

I agree with the 'space age' comment, they definitely use very high quality materials, from head to toe, the NW itself is titanium, but they also use some very, very nice ball bearings which supposedly makes them even more efficient.

But I agree with you Scott, I think what you are doing is really awesome. Long live the big skimmer! I hope that you are able to create something that everyone will be able to duplicate or benefit from in the future.

Peace,
John H.

[H20ENG]

HTK,
Should work. This is the same setup as the Mazzei injector flow adjusters. I know yours is for the suction side.

Also, 6' is pretty tall, even with a span of only 18". Are you using 3/4" material?

John,
Havent seen you around for awhile. Have you actually been studying something other than skimmers?

Nice work again, Spazz.

[spazz]

the tank is made from 1/4" acrylic. its a factory made tank that i bought from a bar that had fresh water fish in it. it stands 6 ft tall and and 14. 5" diameter octogon.

[rufio173]

Originally posted by H20ENG
HTK,
Should work. This is the same setup as the Mazzei injector flow adjusters. I know yours is for the suction side.

Also, 6' is pretty tall, even with a span of only 18". Are you using 3/4" material?

John,
Havent seen you around for awhile. Have you actually been studying something other than skimmers?

Nice work again, Spazz.

Hey Chris,

I've been out of it for awhile. It's the third year and my clerk rotations have taken me out of the game. Hehe

Peace,
John H.

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

You got it H20ENG, its pretty much a venturi for the intake. For the 18"x18"x72" tall monster, I prolly will use 3/4" if it ends up that tall. The original plan was a 6xbeckett skimmer with a 12x12x72 main body...but with this dart...maybe 18" is better? Who knows. The whole thing is on hold for now until I know what the pump will be.

There is actually a use for this skimmer as well...a 1500g reef that a friend is making. He said that if I make it for less yet better than the BK he was looking at, he will split the difference with me... and its kind of fun.

[kentrob11]

Looks promissing Spazz....I was mesing around with a similar idea using titanium rods and resin molds...do you think something like that would hold up?

[spazz]

Originally posted by kentrob11
Looks promissing Spazz....I was mesing around with a similar idea using titanium rods and resin molds...do you think something like that would hold up?

alot of it depends on the design. im finding out that the pins have to be smaller on my design and more of them. instead of bigger pins. but your design is different than mine. the biggest problem is head presure. this design wont handle any type of head presure. so i think im going to scrap the idea and start over with a different design. the velocity of the water is not enough to over come the head pressure. i dont think any large pump will over come the 4 ft of head presure involved here. the smaller pumps can because of the rpm's of the motor. this is a slow rpm motor, so it has a larger diamiter intake which leads to decreased velocity. but the promising news is that the more air injected into the pump the lower the wattage goes. i had a reading of 110w at 60 scfh. thats almost as low as a sedra 9000. nomatter what impellor you use and venturie you use i dont think it will overcome the head pressure problem. but for a skimmer bodythats shorter (4 ft or less) it would be a great pump. the other problem is any fittings on the outlet of the pump decreases its performance by over 50%i ned to find a supplyer of titanium rod that is small diam. i still want to try my next design out and see how it works for chopping up bubbles. this design is not bad but it could be better.

[Energy]

Seems like it's coming along Spazz. You still have an open invitation to do a long term test run on my 1700 gallon reef.

[spazz]

Originally posted by Energy
Seems like it's coming along Spazz. You still have an open invitation to do a long term test run on my 1700 gallon reef.

o sure let the cat out of the bag on me.

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

How about rather than mounting the pump lower, mount the pump at the top of the skimmer and run the outlet straignt down into the skimmer like a downdraft tube. It seems pumps like this do a better job at pushing water than sucking air.

Also, for the impeller, have you considered a mix of two or three blades to help with the actual flow and pressure, and then the needles around that to shred?

The other option is the "Aquamedic" option. Instead of a flat disk with a bunch of parallel pins that cuts down the flow, a radial pin arrangement allows for better application of force on the water.

[spazz]

Originally posted by Herbert T. Kornfeld
How about rather than mounting the pump lower, mount the pump at the top of the skimmer and run the outlet straignt down into the skimmer like a downdraft tube. It seems pumps like this do a better job at pushing water than sucking air.

Also, for the impeller, have you considered a mix of two or three blades to help with the actual flow and pressure, and then the needles around that to shred?

The other option is the "Aquamedic" option. Instead of a flat disk with a bunch of parallel pins that cuts down the flow, a radial pin arrangement allows for better application of force on the water.

unless i redesign the impellor from the start i cant put anything on the intake of the pump. it slows the mix down too much. even with a pipe thats been bent with a large radius curve in it to minimize the flow restriction. it just dont like any restriction at all. this is why im considering a newer design. we will just have to see how it goes. i need a lathe for this to work right. plus i need to get some new parts from sequence. i want a new pump housing so i can relieve some areas inside the housing that cause turbulance in the pump.

[spazz]

well i blew up the first version of the dart needle wheel. it was not giving me the results i wanted. i did find some plastic scraps from drilling in the impellor which would have dropped the preformance of the impellor a littl. but not that much. so i am working on design # 2. this one is 100% from scratch.

[spazz]

well i finished up the new needle wheel and fired it up. all i can say is WOW! what a difference. this new design is the one. i fists hooked it up to see how much air it would draw on its own. i got 60 scfh at 4.5 feet of water in the test tank. not bad. very small bubbles. looked like milk. then i added water to the 5 ft mark. it went down hill from there. so out came the sweet water pump again. this time i couldnt cavate the pump with the sweet water running wide open. the bubbles were nice and small. it was like a tornado in there. that pump can handle 2.5 cubic feet a minute! thats 150 scfh! it peged my 100scfh meter and never even thought about cavating. so then i hooked up the big compressor. 100 psi pressure. i regulated it with a jg ball valve. i couldnt belive how much air you can force into that pump. and the bubbles still stay small.
now for the bad news. first is the wattages. with the bigger impellor and the sweetwater running wide open it runs 250 to 300 watts. depending on how much water you let int othe pump. but for the bubble size and amount of air it can handle its awesome! thats like 5 of the ocean runners combined. but a heck of alot more air. the pump was running a little hotter. i might have to cut down on some of the pins on it to reduce the heat the pump was having.
and now for the worst news of all. i was trying to reinstall the pipe on the end of the outlet to point down and broke the pump right off the tank. i dumped 40 gallons of salt water all over the shop. so now that i have a good design i dont have a tank to test with any more. i think im going to shorten up the test tank to 5 ft tall. and move the fittings up a little so i can reach them easer. its a pain in the rear to have to drain the tank every time i want to change inlet pipe.
in the end i think this design will test out to be a winner. its the shear amount of air it can handle and the size of the bubbles that amazes me. that thing can handle way more air than you would ever need in a skimmer. i know there are alot of people who dont like the though of force feeding a skimmer pump. but its the only way to get that kind of cfm's to the pump at that head pressure. ther is no venturie that will allow the pump to suck 150 scfh at 6 ft of head. i think you can get 100 scfh at 2 ft of head. we will have to see.

[kentrob11]

Awesome! Do you think some kind of modified venturi would work there? Possibly oversized with multiple air inlets as opposed to one?

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

Told you it wont cavitate...lol. Just an idea on the new test chamber...how about a little wider? I wonder what its bubble distribution might be like with something in the 300 square inch range.

[dhnguyen]

So.... What exactly did you use to make the needle wheel itself?

[dgasmd]

Great!! If I may suggest, you may want to put a union valve at the intake and outlet buklhead for the test vessel. It wil allow you to close it leaving the water in the tank and take down the pump.

This is pretty cool stuff. Now the big question is: where do we go from here to get one?? Are you going to post some pictures of it? Are you going to wait for Sequence to come out with their design before you "release" yours? Are you planning to sell these impellers modified or is this a DIY project for the masses?

[dgasmd]

By the way, what sweetwater pump were you using again? Do you have a link to it?

[LA-Lawman]

Originally posted by dgasmd
By the way, what sweetwater pump were you using again? Do you have a link to it?

Alberto, are you trying to get rid of your airstones.... this NW dart is cool. you could probably put two of them on your monster skimmer...

[DC321]

Alberto has the perfect test "tube" for this NW skimmer pump.

Maybe you can ship him the parts and he can be your test cell....and I can watch!

[spazz]

i think im going to cut this tank down and get rid of the area i broke out. then shorten up the plumbing on it. i also need to ger an air meter that will read high enough to mesure the airflow. as for air intakes, there is 2 of them in the intake pipe. they are 3/8 water line. as for releasing any info on the design goes. i would like to see what sequence comes up with first. maybe theres will be better. we dont know. i really had to destroy my pump housing to get this new design to fit the way i wanted it to. i wouldnt want everyone going out and carving up there pumps just to find out sequence has a better design. but im confident they will never think of this one. lol its really off the wall. im just bummed out that i cant post pics right now.
the other though here is than sequence is designing a pump for super huge skimmers. miy design would work for medium to large skimmers. i think this would be a great pump for 700g to 2000g systems. the wattages are low enough and bubbles are definatly small enough.
im off to my mom and dads this weekend and next week i will be on the road. so..... it will be a couple of weeks before i can ge the new modifications done to the test tank. then i might build a top for it and turn it into a real skimmer.
herbert, i dont think this pump would be big enough for a 300sq. in. body. ya it puts out alot of bubbles but there so densely packed in the top 4 ft of the test tank that you would need 2 of these to make a skimmer that size. the pump housing is just not big inough to handle that much air/water. but never fear the sequence needle wheel will be here, real soon. lol i think this pump is a contender to the bk pump. but higher wattage though.
if you convert the numbers that deltec clames they get out of there skimmers, this 1 pump is equivelant to 6 of the eheim needle wheels. but there wattage are higher than this is. but the key here is that i think this pump will handle 200 scfh. thats 6552 leters an hour and i know the wattage draw will go down by another 10 -20 watts. i just need an air pump to handle it now. lol
as for the air pump its a sl56 from this site.
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/...21789/cid/3894
this is an awesome pump. super quiet and tons of air. i was going to make an air driven skimmer using this pump, but the air stones dont make small enough bubbles. i was going to sell this pump but now i think im going to keep it for testing.
have a good christmas guys.