Is this salt mix safe?

mixed_reefer · #1 12/09/2007, 06:29 PM

Hi. I have a mixed reef tank, i had a friend who got out of the hobby and he gave me this salt mix. I have been doing some reading on it and im confused to say the least. The calcium is seperate from the salt mix, it looks like turbo calcium or some form of pelleted calcium chloride. The directions say to never add it to the salt until after your water change wich seems odd to me. Also the borate level has me worried. Will you please take a look at it and tell me if you would even use it.
here is a description of the salt and how to use it

bertoni · #2 12/09/2007, 07:45 PM

The description gives borate at 1.5 meq/L, which is very high. I wouldn't use that product. I don't see any reason to separate the calcium from the rest of the product, but I don't think it'd hurt.

scaryperson27 · #3 12/09/2007, 09:52 PM

I was thinking of using this salt myself. Nice to know there's no bad trace chemicals in there.

aquabod · #4 12/10/2007, 12:06 PM

i have used this salt, i have seen a great difference since ive used it. you can call Gary at this web site and ask him about your concerns. a lot of what he says makes a lot of sense

Randy Holmes-Farley · #5 12/10/2007, 12:21 PM

Nice to know there's no bad trace chemicals in there.

What makes you believe that?

mixed_reefer · #6 12/10/2007, 07:02 PM

My thoughts exactly... What say you Randy? Would you use it? Is the borate level of concern.

Im not looking into making this my salt of choice. I have 50 gallons worth of mix for free and was just wondering if it would be ok to use a time or two.

aquabod · #7 12/10/2007, 11:34 PM

how was your friends aquarium? wasnt he using this salt mix in his? did he have any problems from using it? would be interesting to know as i have been using the same salt and just ordered some more. from what i have used i have seemed to have good results. my corals seem to be more vibrant,better extension and all around happier since ive been using it but that may have nothing to do with it,then again it might!!

mixed_reefer · #8 12/11/2007, 12:28 AM

His tank was a haven for phosphate, algae and sps pests.... He never used any one salt consistently that i know of and im not sure how often or if ever he used it.
Im not trying to bash it, i was just asking mainly about the level of borate, seems high and bertoni specifically pointed that out. Like i said i dont plan to use it as my everyday salt, i use reef crystals, but i would like to use it if possible to save a little $.

Randy Holmes-Farley · #9 12/11/2007, 08:05 AM

My thoughts exactly... What say you Randy?

I do not have any reason to think it a good or bad salt mix, without a detailed analysis.

The borate is unusually high (about 3x NSW), but I doubt it is a problem. Nevertheless, it concerns me when manufacturers intentionally mess with NSW ratios, and thus may be doing so for the other many ions in seawater and just do not bother to mention it.

mixed_reefer · #10 12/11/2007, 05:16 PM

Thank you bertoni, aqua and Randy. I think i will give it a whirl. I will only be replacing 25 percent of the systems volume with one water change. With all the macro i grow and using baking soda as my alk sup im sure it wont shoot my borate off the chart.

aquabod · #11 12/12/2007, 10:09 AM

i was just thinking....even though the borate level may be high,wouldnt that only be a problem if you were going to have a 100 % of this type of saltwater mix,or do a extra large water change? if you only did a 25% water change then being that its 3x the amount of NSW wouldnt that mean its supplemented your aquarium up to 75% of the recommended level of borate? i might be missing something here,maybe the long term use of this salt. i might call the owner of this salt and ask him why the borate levels are so high.did all the other levels look ok?

Randy Holmes-Farley · #12 12/12/2007, 10:34 AM

If you use 25% of a salt with 3x borate (and 75% normal seawater), you'll boost borate to 1.5x in the final solution. Not enough to worry about, but not a benefit, IMO.

He list only a few ingredients, and there is no particular reason to accept them at face value, since other manufacturers list many things that simply end up being inaccurate. Then there are the many unlisted ingredients. That's why I suggested a detailed analysis would be useful.

aquabod · #13 12/12/2007, 10:45 AM

yes i totally agree. if i called this guy and asked for a detailed analysis of his salt mix,what exactly would this include incase he asks? is there much point in asking him for this?

Randy Holmes-Farley · #14 12/12/2007, 11:01 AM

I doubt he's done it, but this sort of analysis would be useful:

"The Composition of Several Synthetic Seawater Mixes," by Marlin Atkinson and Craig Bingman

"A Chemical Analysis of Select Trace Elements in Synthetic Sea Salts and Natural Seawater," by Timothy A. Hovanec, Ph.D. and Jennifer L. Coshland
http://web.archive.org/web/200012150.../1/default.asp
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...04/feature.htm

"Inland Reef Aquaria Salt Study, Part I," by Mathew Marulla and Thomas O’Toole
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/11/aafeature1

"Inland Reef Aquaria Salt Study, Part II," by Mathew Marulla and Thomas O’Toole
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/12/aafeature1

This is my caveat to such studies:

Artificial Seawater: Chemical Analysis of Mixes
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-03/rhf/index.php#5

Several studies have analyzed the chemical constituents of salt mixes. Some of these are linked below for those who want to investigate further.

"The Composition of Several Synthetic Seawater Mixes," by Marlin Atkinson and Craig Bingman
"A Chemical Analysis of Select Trace Elements in Synthetic Sea Salts and Natural Seawater," by Timothy A. Hovanec, Ph.D. and Jennifer L. Coshland
"Inland Reef Aquaria Salt Study, Part I," by Mathew Marulla and Thomas O’Toole
"Inland Reef Aquaria Salt Study, Part II," by Mathew Marulla and Thomas O’Toole

The problem with using such studies to select a salt mix is that, while we can look to see which brands most closely match natural seawater, the problem is that none really does, and it becomes very difficult to decide what is best. For example, is it better to have too much sulfate or too little fluoride? Too much borate or too little bromide? Too much strontium or too little potassium? No one knows. Ask that question about nearly every chemical constituent, and the true answer is, “No one knows.”

Even worse, salt mixes periodically change their formulations and bulk material suppliers so their properties change. Even if a salt study analyzes so many samples that it accurately reflects all of the batches of a single salt brand on the market at a given time, a few months later it may be of little value. Several manufacturers, for example, have publicly stated that they have changed their formulation since some of the studies linked above were released.

There are some obvious chemical differences between salt mixes that aquarists readily discover for themselves. These generally relate to their readily measurable levels of calcium, alkalinity and magnesium. Even here, it is not simple to decide what is best because aquarists often intentionally keep water parameters that are different from natural seawater (for example, maintaining higher alkalinity than in the ocean), or might want the mix to have an overabundance of something to offset losses in the aquarium (magnesium, for example). Bear in mind that all of these, and most especially alkalinity, are almost immediately altered in reef aquaria by the necessary supplementation, and that the exact values in the salt mix may not be particularly important. They are also easily adjusted by aquarists who want to do so.

So, despite being a chemist and having taken many of these types of measurements myself, I don’t put much emphasis on such chemical studies. Perhaps it would be wise to toss out of contention those that seem seriously flawed, but that leaves many of them. Better salt mix decisions might be made using the types of information described later in this article.

RBU1 · #15 12/12/2007, 12:48 PM

I have been using this salt for a couple months now. I am happy with the looks of the tank and the readings I get. My real reason for staying with this salt is the person that makes it seems real knowledgeable. His name is Garry and is willing to help with anything you need. I just purchased 6 of the 25 gallon bags and 13 of the 5 gallon bags.

RBU1 · #16 12/12/2007, 01:08 PM

OK I just got off the phone with Garry.....The maker of the salt. If you are a regular to Reef Central and have a post count of over 1000 he is willing to work with a couple people and send them some free samples if you pay for shipping. All I can say is don't knock anything till you try it.

He is going to become an RC sponsor but at the moment it is to expensive for him due to the time and expense associated with making such a great product. If you have any questions Garry is willing to talk to anyone 1-717-243-9545

Randy Holmes-Farley · #17 12/12/2007, 01:26 PM

My real reason for staying with this salt is the person that makes it seems real knowledgeable.

All I can say is don't knock anything till you try it.

What makes you believe it is better than other salt mixes? Which other ones have you used? The original designers of many other mixes are/were also quite knowledgeable.

RBU1 · #18 12/12/2007, 01:34 PM

Hi Randy and welcome back to the boards.. I did not realize you were back..But I am really glad you are. No offense Bertoni...or Boomer....Ok now to the question you asked me. I have used Oceanic, Instant ocean and Tropic Marin pro Reef. I also messed around with a salt called Crystal Sea.....Just because I can get it DIRT cheap.

I would say I have tried a fair share of salts. My plan is to continue using Garry's salt for an extended period then test all my parameters. I can say that since I started using Garry's salt on my 180 I have not had to buffer my PH. I also noticed an increase in polyp extension in my 75 gallon reef. I can only speak because I have tried it. I can not answer from a scientific aspect.

Randy Holmes-Farley · #19 12/12/2007, 01:58 PM

Thanks. I'm just visiting.

I'm glad you like the salt.

RBU1 · #20 12/12/2007, 02:06 PM

You can make it a long visit right!!!!!

The more you get involved with this hobby the more you learn there are different things that work for different people. Not saying I am different!!!!!

Just that I have seen positives so far. What type of salt are you using and why?

Randy Holmes-Farley · #21 12/12/2007, 02:15 PM

I normally use IO because of its long track record of success. I bump the calcium and magnesium in it with Dowflake and MAG flake.

I recently tried some Reef Crystals for no other reason than to get a little variety.

I usually change 1% (about 3 gallons) per day so I go through them fairly fast.

RBU1 · #22 12/12/2007, 02:20 PM

If you get a chance call Garry and see what you think.....He will send you some samples and you never know you may really like his product. Hey if you don't like it, no harm no foul.........It may save you from having to buffer. Take care Randy and again nice to see you back. BILL

jpa14 · #23 12/12/2007, 02:27 PM

I also have been using this salt for about a year with no problems

mrgettanked · #24 12/12/2007, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bertoni
The description gives borate at 1.5 meq/L, which is very high. I wouldn't use that product. I don't see any reason to separate the calcium from the rest of the product, but I don't think it'd hurt.

Bertoni quote,
The description gives borate at 1.5 meq/L, which is very high. I wouldn't use that product.

Here is an insert from the directions of Seachem Reef Status: Magnesium, Carbonate & Borate.

Please read carefully.

“Natural seawater has a total alkalinity of about 2.5 meg/L, of which about 0.1 – 0.2 meg/L is from borate. In an aquarium, it is advantageous for both pH control and improved calcium stability to have a higher borate content. This however, should not be at the expense of carbonate. It is useful, then, to maintain a total alkalinity of about 4-5 meg/L with a borate component of about 1.5 - 2.0 meg/L.”

bertoni quote,
I don't see any reason to separate the calcium from the rest of the product, but I don't think it'd hurt.

Back in Columbus’s day they said the world was flat, those apposed were considered nuts to think out side the box.

mrgettanked

bertoni · #25 12/12/2007, 10:18 PM

They are correct that pH is more stable with more borate, but we don't have useful borate tests, and borate can accumulate. That can leave corals without carbonate.

Actually, in Columbus's day, people didn't think the world was flat. They thought it was about 25,000 miles around (which was about right) and Columbus wasn't going to make it to India. They were right about that, too.