The Ultimate DIY Rocks! - Page 5

Insane Reefer · #**101** 07/20/2007, 02:36 AM

Um - a google search returned just 7 results for "perlcrete". Since it didn't seem taken when I was doing my research on perlite and its use in aquariums, I hijacked it for my own use in naming this type of MMLR

From what we read, that Neptune posted, when we started really exploring the possibility, there are like 20 grades of perlite, with uses from filtration to fireproofing, paint textures to planters.
It is cool stuff

Mine is a bit more like traditional Ol' Skool MMLR:
1cement:1sand:1os:1perlite

Although I did one of:
1cement:1sand:0.5 os:1.5perlite

And it came out rather nice. Like anything else, you can experiment with the materials until you find something you like.

To get results like I did will require baking Grannybj - if you PM me an email address, I will send you the baking info, which includes the test form.

eshook · #**102** 07/20/2007, 09:41 AM

Whew!

It took a better part of a week, but I finished reading this entire thread (from Travis's first post). Now I know I haven't missed anything!

I made some MMLR a year or two ago using the Ol' School method. Its currently sitting in my garage and once I get some litmus paper I will test its pH. I'm hoping its low enough by air kuring to throw in my new tank.

As for new LR - I have some materials, but need cement (the old portland was thrown away when we moved last month) This area is new so I will investigate the portland options here. I hope they sell 50 lb bags and just not the 94. That stuff is heavy! I think I will also try to do a perlcrete rock or two. I have no livestock to risk at the present point and believe it will be inert so I think I will try making some sump rubble with perlcrete to help bacteria growth.

For those who are still BBQ'ing your rock I would recommend soaked burlap (possibly wrapped in foil to hold the moisture). For our wedding my wifes family roasted a pig in the ground. (We went to Hawaii for our honeymoon and had a luau for our rehearsal dinner) To roast a pig in the ground first you dig a hole about 5'x5'x5'. Then you essentially throw wood into the pit until it is almost filled with coals. Once the coals are ~1.5' from the top you stop throwing wood in the fire. You then take the meat (we had the pig cut into 12 pieces for easier handling) wrap it in essentially wax paper, wrap it in burlap, and dip the whole thing into a container of water and throw it on the coals. Once all the meat is in the pit you cover it with a piece of plywood, then a tarp, and throw dirt over it to seal in the heat and remove any oxygen. (No oxygen = no fire) Come back roughly 10 hours later and you have *very* juicy meat. The burlap holds a lot of water and keeps the meat juicy during the cook. I would think it would hold true for the rocks as well. Just an idea.

Insane Reefer · #**103** 07/20/2007, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by eshook
For those who are still BBQ'ing your rock I would recommend soaked burlap (possibly wrapped in foil to hold the moisture)... The burlap holds a lot of water and keeps the meat juicy during the cook. I would think it would hold true for the rocks as well. Just an idea.

Burlap - that would be better then the paper towel/foil option I posted - I had also considered cheese cloth, but that would get a bit expensive if you do a lot of rocks.

Let us know how it goes with your new batch

eshook · #**104** 07/20/2007, 10:36 AM

As for the burlap it will be reusable too. Just resoak it everytime (you might want to rinse it afterwards because it will probably get some rock boogers

I will keep everyone posted on the progress of my rock. I'm hoping we can find a faster kure time so we can reduce the amount of rock that needs to be pulled from the reef. I'm going to try to contact my brother-in-law and his son. Both of them went to school for heavy highway / bridge construction and they essentially work on cement bridges for a living. I would think they would know at least a few options for faster cure/kure, but I don't know if they will be reef safe. Someone try to remind me to ask them, I tend to forget things ...

michaelalan · #**105** 07/20/2007, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by eshook
I'm going to try to contact my brother-in-law and his son. Both of them went to school for heavy highway / bridge construction and they essentially work on cement bridges for a living. I would think they would know at least a few options for faster cure/kure, but I don't know if they will be reef safe. Someone try to remind me to ask them, I tend to forget things ...

Dude, hook us up!

mr.wilson · #**106** 07/20/2007, 11:17 AM

Sidewalk and curb cement gets a layer of wet burlap to slow the curing process for strength and shrinkage (crack) control, but I'm sure they know a trick or two about cement procedures.

Insane Reefer · #**107** 07/20/2007, 11:18 AM

Engineering and chemistry are two very different beasts - but it never hurts to ask. People in the field often think we are nuts because of what we do to our cement - which is exactly what the pro's don't do. They want solid, perfect cement/concrete, we go for the exact opposite.
If they don't just stare at you (very common), let us know what they say, please

eshook · #**108** 07/20/2007, 11:41 AM

Are there any specific questions you would like me to ask? I think I'll start by emailing them. So if I had specific questions that might get the conversation started.

medic29 · #**109** 07/20/2007, 11:47 AM

eshook - don't go out and buy any portland right away, come on over - you can have as much as you want. Maybe we could make a batch together. I've been thinking about making another batch as well.

medic29 · #**110** 07/20/2007, 11:49 AM

I would imagine we would want to know if there is anything that would speed up the chemical curing process.

Insane Reefer · #**111** 07/20/2007, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by medic29
I would imagine we would want to know if there is anything that would speed up the chemical curing process.

There is - Calcium Chloride is one and it is safe to use. It basically turns regular portland or mortar into a fast set mix. Fast set cements pH stabilize much quicker than traditional portland's without.

Eshook, Ask them about Sodium Bicarbonate, and if emailing, reference them to this: http://www.miswaco.com/Products_and_...ICARBONITE.pdf

And ask if they understand the formula as expressed for precipitating lime. I'd love a layman's translation of that, something like "a tablespoon added to 1 pound of powder cement" would tickle me silly...

Oh! And ask about Powdered Aluminum. Powdered Aluminum is supposed to react with the wet slurry and decomposes (or in some other reaction) into Hydrogen. The hydrogen leaves micro bubbles in the cement, as we ll as adds a "swelling" effect, sort of like "Great Stuff" expando-foam; this could make for some very interesting rock. My question is how much would one use, and secondly (most importantly) what actually happens to the Aluminum? Is it destroyed in the chemical process? Aluminum isn't a huge no-no reef-wise, and our cement contains alumina products, but some people have voiced concerns over it. Wondering if there needs to be concern.

medic29 · #**112** 07/20/2007, 05:55 PM

How much calcium chloride would be used in the recipe??

Insane Reefer · #**113** 07/20/2007, 07:38 PM

Would need to follow package directions - usually it is one bag to one bag kind of thing, so then you'd need to break that into portions...

Insane Reefer · #**114** 07/21/2007, 09:58 AM

Here is a little more info.
http://www.flordrisupply.com/cement.htm

But it is this that makes me think that the cement is pulling calcium from our systems to complete the hydration process.

Later this week I will be doing a test on this, but somewhat altered from my original suggested test; I will need to be able to test the calcium chloride solution, so will have to keep the solution within test kit parameters. However I do it, if the solution has X amount of calcium before I add the rock and the calcium decreases, then we will know that there is a mechanism that is using calcium.
So quick question. How do you test CA in freshwater? I'm assuming a saltwater test won't work for freshwater - is there a kit I can get?

cayars · #**115** 07/21/2007, 11:19 AM

I think you read the article wrong.

It is talking about adding calcium chloride to the mix to help it hydrate faster.

Carlo

eshook · #**116** 07/21/2007, 03:06 PM

I went to a few stores looking for perlite and cement. Lowes carried perlite so I looked over the bag to see if there was any additives and didn't see anything. I asked a person if it was only perlite with no additives and they say 'just perlite'. I got home and found out it had miracle grow added. Now I need to go find a new source of 100% perlite.

Lowes carried 10lb bags of masonry and cement mix for ~$1.50 each. (Note: cement mix did not have rock aggregate, only sand) I picked up a bag of each to try. If they don't work I'm not out a lot and it should give me some variety in my rocks. I also plan on testing the pH to see if there is a significant difference in kuring time.

I'm also working on a new experiment that I will detail tonight if I have time. Wish me luck!

Insane Reefer · #**117** 07/21/2007, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cayars
I think you read the article wrong.

It is talking about adding calcium chloride to the mix to help it hydrate faster.

Carlo

I think you need a dictionary

Hydration = curing = hardening

The chemical process of the cement hardening, or "curing" is called hydration. When cement is "fully" hydrated, the "kure" (a term we coined to describe the water baths that we use to lower pH), goes exponentially faster.
But it can take dozens of years for typical cement to completely finish hydration (the industry says 90-95% happens in the first 28 days or so) - some cement has been found that 100 years later still shows chemical reactions occurring.

Calcium Chloride (yes, like what we use in our aquariums) was pointed out by Mr. Wilson a while back as a way to turn regular portland into something more closely resembling what he uses in his rock walls, which he can typically use in a week or two, instead of the months we usually go through.

medic29 · #**118** 07/21/2007, 03:45 PM

what about rinsing the miricle grow off??

Insane Reefer · #**119** 07/21/2007, 03:58 PM

Of all the horticultural perlites I have seen over the last week, none had anything added.
But I'm guessing you bought this one?
http://www.miraclegro.com/index.cfm/...ee8c0684944d00

Yeah, you gotta read the bag - it says it right there on the front "Enriched with Miracle-Gro".

I'd try to take it back.

eshook · #**120** 07/21/2007, 05:10 PM

The bag looks similar to that, but yes it said that.

I was focusing my attention on the back of the bag and the back didn't say anything. I'll end up taking it back, but am disappointed that I didn't have it today.

Insane Reefer · #**121** 07/21/2007, 05:15 PM

It is a boo, Eshook - I have to admit I've done that before too, lol.
Wal-mart carries Schultz brand, cheap ($2.98), with no additives

Over in the house plant section - I've used less than half my bag and gotten about 25- 30lbs of rock out of it so far.

eshook · #**122** 07/21/2007, 05:20 PM

I looked at Walmart first, but I couldn't find it there. Maybe I'll look again at a different Walmart. What color is the bag so I know what to look for?

Insane Reefer · #**123** 07/21/2007, 05:26 PM

It is dark green - Schultz Green.
It wasn't out in the garden section at any of our 3 local locations - it was inside near the planters for indoor plants, on a bottom shelf...
HTH

Edit:
Seems I don't know what I am talking about - here is a picture of the stuff I found at Walmart - where I got green from is anyone's guess...

mr.wilson · #**124** 07/21/2007, 05:27 PM

Adding calcium chloride to the cement mix will speed the curing process, but cement cannot actively draw calcium out of the water. The converse occurs; calcium migrates from the cement to the water, thus increasing the calcium and PH levels.

A drier cement mix will also speed the curing process, as there is less water to remove.

I'm still curious to see how DIY rock would turn out with large crystal calcium chloride or magnesium chloride in place of sodium chloride. Unfortunately, I don't have time to test it myself.

I'm doing a faux reef wall and covering some PVC pipes tomorrow with Bomix Quick Patch. It isn't waterproof like the stuff I usually use (Quikrete), and it has a 20 minute set-time, instead of the 2 minute blitz I'm used to. Preliminary tests using it to cover PVC overflows have been encouraging. I'll post some pictures and let you know how it works out.

mr.wilson · #**125** 07/21/2007, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insane Reefer
It is dark green - Schultz Green.
It wasn't out in the garden section at any of our 3 local locations - it was inside near the planters for indoor plants, on a bottom shelf...
HTH

What colour is the finished product when you use green perlite? Why use green instead of grey or white?