DIY Red Dragon Pumps, gathering ideas.

[hahnmeister]

I do wonder what Royal Exclusiv does about the shaft support on the two smaller class pumps... I think all the Red Dragons use the 'disk support'... maybe they sub in an impeller from a the Laguna 6 series or something like that. I doubt it would be lucrative to machine custom disks and impeller parts for that... it would be easier just to make a support in the volute.

[hahnmeister]

Originally posted by Bishop
Something to consider: It takes almost zero effort for Askoll to wind a custom stator to meet Royal-Exclusive's peak torque, wattage, and rpm requirements. Since they sell a niche market pump and charge a premium, they can afford to produce smaller quantities of specialty pumps. On the other hand, the tooling for the injection molded pieces typically start at 50,000 and rapidly go up. So it makes less sense to have Askoll (or third party) manufacture a custom housing for such a small quantity of pumps.

Hagen is producing a broader range product which larger market penetration to justify and make profitable their investment.

My point is simply: Just because they have the same manufacturer and have the same housing, in no way means they are the same pump.

Best of luck though, I would like to see you guys succeed. Lets see those dynamometer tests.

Thats a good point... but why would they need a custom stator? Seriously... Im asking. It seems that there are plenty of models in their stock line that would work, and then the impellers switch right over as well. Would there be a reason for why the stator would have to be custom?

On a side note: I wonder how hard it would be to call up Sicce and get them to just send the Tunze/ATI hydrofoamer/threadwheel pump OEM-style. I bet they are no more than $60 each this way. They make the whole pump there you know for Tunze/ATI (with the exception of the needlewheel/meshwheel perhaps).

[Tigger240]

hahn i was going to give you a rash of crap for this "absurd idea" but it looks like very phesable to diy a red dragon. i was like man, i kinda feel bad now. good luck to you, and im looking forward to seeing how your project works out. i can cad anything that you need, 2d or 3d in autocad, if it would help you in any way.

[hahnmeister]

Why would you give me a 'rash of crap'? Lol. No, seriously, I dont mind that you doubt... its not me you doubt, its the possibility to make a RD clone from a Laguna pump. What obstacles do/did you see?

Cool, thanks for the luck and CAD help. Im EE, we dont get to learn CAD and all that cool stuff that the ME and Civil guys get to... so Ill admit, Im CAD illiterate (well, not so much pure CAD, but some of the CNC stuff). Maybe mass-production? Lol.

You know, I know Klaus's biggest regret was that he never patented the bubble plate design... thats why others can use it/ copy it. I'll bet he never patented the Red Dragons either so selling conversion kits wouldnt be illegal. All it would be is a new impeller/ modded one, an alloy shaft, and the volute. Or at least, make the CAD/CNC code public so that anyone could make their own. Lol.

This must be why Klaus started making the Red Dragon 2 (DC) and Silver Dragon pumps... a new pump so he could patent it and nobody else could copy.

[Tigger240]

yea i did doubt that you could make a red dragon from a laguna pump. i just didnt think it was going to work out to be this way. you say red dragon, and think 1g and then its like its gotta be super hi-tec and its gotta have a flux capicitor somewhere. those red dragon 2's look awesome. i guess when i hit the lottery or something. i still think it would be a good idea to get exact measurements from someone who has a red dragon pump, to atleast give you a starting point of what to make, and sizes in stuff.

[drauka99]

also if you need some cad help (I am one of those Civil guys of which you speak, but actually learned cad doing mech stuff and rendering.) I can help.

[douggiestyle]

well thats pretty awesome hahn. i took that pump i have. the volute is 2" inside diameter. i used the gutter guard product. zip tied over the impeller, similar to your needle point mesh mod. assuming the specs on the pump are right, along with your obsevations on watts used vs air intake. im guessing about 15-20 watts. that thing made bubbles so small they litterally where microscopic. i have know idea what the air intake (lph) was. but i was using 1/4 water line with a 1/4" barb union pressed through the hose just before the pumps intake. the air it drew was minimal considdering the restraints BUT i could just about blow into the tube with all my might and the pump was able to handle the extra air. now the funny thing (and i believe you noted this in the mesh wheel thread) the water flow from the pump drop drasticly but what was coming out looked like shaving cream. unfortunately i lack the cammera to capture this. but this led me to understand the need for a diffuser at the bottom of the skimmer. at least when doing the shaving foam. it just didnt move around at all. came out and floated up. leaving the intire bottom half of the skimmer body clear (in comparison). so maybe changing out the 1/4" (with a barbed fitting so, the actual final id was about 1/16") with something more substantial would increase the air draw. i like this idea about DRASTICLY increasing the volute.

so here are some pics. i used the original prugs 5 gallon jug skimmer that i built but never used.

[hahnmeister]

Thats pretty good... the intake is almost as white as the output. You need to get an airflow meter on there to be sure. If the outlet is so slow that its like shaving cream... you might have too much restriction on the intake side of the pump... just a possibility. Like you said... impossible to know w/o actual readings and seeing in person.

But yeah... larger volutes, larger input and outputs are the key to better performing pumps. Look at Maxi-Jets, Mags, most external pumps, etc... they suck as needlewheels. The major problem with the AquaEuro skimmer pumps is the same... large needlewheel impeller... sure... but that means nothing since the pump's volute is barely larger than the impeller and the pump outlet is only 1/2" FPT.

Then, look at the 'big dogs'... Needlewheel Darts/ORCAs, Red Dragons, the new Tunze hydrofoamer, etc... they are all high-flow, low speed, low pressure pumps with large volutes and large outlets. Look at an eheim even... look at that volute... its 2.5" in diameter, and the outlet, well... if you sand out the threads and bond a union to the outside of the pump... its outlet is more than 1" in diameter. No wonder it can get up to 1800lph as a threadwheel. The larger volute allows for more air inside without the need for as much water flow.

[smjtkj]

Doug, which pump did you use? The PF4 mesh has shown to be a pretty substantial improvement over the gutter guard. Also, if you increase the air hose to 3/8 id, it will be a huge improvment.
Man you guys have me all amped over these pumps. I am thinking about trying one in place of the dart threadwheel I did.
I am thinking about using the 5000 or 7000.
Mike

[douggiestyle]

i used a johnson drain pump from a frigidaire dishwasher. magdrive. i was moved by its wattage, valute and intake/outake size. they are large due to the trash in the water. think small trash pump. and extra quiet. should see the bosch pumps, i dont think bosch builds them, it maybe askoll. askoll claims to build bosch pumps, may not build all of them. anyways very sweet. and supposed to be one of the most energy effcient pumps available. very very very quiet. ive been trying to track down the exact specs on the bosch pumps but cant get them. will post pics.

[douggiestyle]

well i was wrong sisme builds the pump. its the one on the top right. but check out the bottom one. that could be really cool.

here are some pics with descriptions.
this is half the volute. notice the similarities to a tunze.



the other half, showing the impeller.



here is the impeller. notice the intake (center) its ducted.



here is a side view of the impeller. you can see the blades.

[douggiestyle]

sorry for the lousy camera

[hahnmeister]

Looks very cool. The spiral contours in the volute to help move the fluids around cant hurt either. When looking at some older H&S/Deltec eheims, and now on the inside of the Aquaclear, there is a small flap, or plate, sometimes employed at the outlet of the pump volute. Where the air/water mix would otherwise spin right past the outlet, there is a small ...aww, bugger... heres what Im talking about in a pic... the red thing!!

[quangtam7]

When have time I will take pictures of of the volute's parts and upload a video of it running. Man, air is freaking loud!!

[douggiestyle]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
Looks very cool. The spiral contours in the volute to help move the fluids around cant hurt either. When looking at some older H&S/Deltec eheims, and now on the inside of the Aquaclear, there is a small flap, or plate, sometimes employed at the outlet of the pump volute. Where the air/water mix would otherwise spin right past the outlet, there is a small ...aww, bugger... heres what Im talking about in a pic... the red thing!!

ive removed the red thing from the mag9.5 that i use. it was rubber and would get bent in one direction. if i would shut the pump off and if the pump restarted in the opposite direction, the output would be less until the rubber thing got bent the other direction. this would drive me nuts with adjusting the overflow. so i removed it.

[spykes]

Red dragon has serveral features the hagen pump does not support. They have titanium shafts and no rubber bushings to stay centered. The lime bypass was also inserted. I'll take some pics of my BK400's impeller. Also like mag drive those 4 screw attachments needs to be bored out and the venturi on the BK is very diffrent in adjustment. I dunno if you can just make a RD pump. Even their regular RD has changed over a bit. My friend used my old titanium impeller for his RD pump. It didnt function like my RD skimmer pump did.

[spykes]

but this is really interesting never the less. i am looking foward to your results

[douggiestyle]

i noticed in the red dragon that the outtake is asymetrical in how it connects to the volute. would this mean that the pump is unidirectional?

[douggiestyle]

some thing ive noticed, why do 90% of all mods take place in the kitchen?

[hahnmeister]

douggiestyle, Im not sure how RE knows for sure, but the Aquaclear 901s do tend to start in the same direction 90% of the time. The larger pumps, if you look closely at the impellers, appear to be unidirectional as well.

[hahnmeister]

Originally posted by spykes
Red dragon has serveral features the hagen pump does not support. They have titanium shafts and no rubber bushings to stay centered. The lime bypass was also inserted. I'll take some pics of my BK400's impeller. Also like mag drive those 4 screw attachments needs to be bored out and the venturi on the BK is very diffrent in adjustment. I dunno if you can just make a RD pump. Even their regular RD has changed over a bit. My friend used my old titanium impeller for his RD pump. It didnt function like my RD skimmer pump did.

REAAAALLLLLYYYYY? You need to take a closer look then, because the Red Dragon pumps ARE Laguna pumps, in case you missed me saying that before. And while the smaller models have the ceramic+rubber shaft supports, the larger ones do not. The Red Dragons simply swap the ceramic shaft for the alloy one. The anti-lime port can be duplicated easily with a drill and some 1/4" JG fittings. The screw attachments CANT be bored out because UNLIKE mag drive pumps they are not plastic screws, but full machine screws with threaded nuts in the housing to mate with. The whole point of the mod is that the volute is being swapped out like how RE does it. If my machine screws arent done 100% the same, Im not too concerned. Otherwise, we would be trying to find red PVC right now... .

Sorry, but did you read everything in the thread before you posted? I covered all these topics already.

Well, I await your pics of the BK400s impeller. I do suspect that there are different impellers, and so one shaft will not fit all pumps... just like with the Lagunas.

[hahnmeister]

dp

[JCTewks]

where can i get blocks of pvc to turn the volute on a lathe?? also what about sheet pvc for the mounting plate?

[andyjd]

Interesting pics of the Eheim, I hope to use one on my Orca Skimmer

[douggiestyle]

Originally posted by JCTewks
where can i get blocks of pvc to turn the volute on a lathe?? also what about sheet pvc for the mounting plate?

was thinking the same thing.

usplastics should have it i will check........

they have in thier online catalog max 2"deep 10"x10" sheets. i dont think the volute would need to be more than 2" deep. hth