Clown laying on top of sand, no spots, or loss of color...

treminga · #1 09/27/2007, 05:50 PM

Okay, few days ago, I was posting that my larger (assuming female) clown look like it got attacked. Today she seems totally fine!

Now today the smaller clown (assuming male) all day has been laying on the sand (not on its side, but on its belly), and wiggling around a little bit, but not a whole lot. No spots, no color change, no disease I can visually see.

What could be happening to him?

All other fish seem to be doing well, including the clown that seemed despondent before.

Water params:
Temp- 82-86 (one of those LCD deals, 82, 84 and 86 are lit- MH have been running for 5-6 hours now)
Salinity- 29
pH- 8.2
Ammonia- 0
Nitrites- 0
Nitrates- 0
Calcium- 340
kH- 8

Maika'i · #2 09/27/2007, 05:57 PM

your temperature is really high, maybe not enough oxygen

davidryder · #3 09/27/2007, 08:35 PM

Maybe he is just tired of swimming?

Yeah that could very well be low oxygen

yellowwatchmen · #4 09/27/2007, 08:59 PM

Do you have a Heater? If you do and its on turn it down and lower the temp over the next couple of days. I would also add a aerator for a day.

mikey3165 · #5 09/27/2007, 09:00 PM

temp should be around 78

nemofish2217 · #6 09/27/2007, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mikey3165
temp should be around 78

not neccessarily, temp can be as high as 82 or 83 and things will be fine IMO. The idea is to not allow large swings in the temp...

cd77 · #7 09/27/2007, 09:50 PM

Did you find out what attacked your first clown?

treminga · #8 09/27/2007, 10:01 PM

No I didn't, although today she seems to be much more active and swimming around. But was also staying close to the smaller male clown that seemed to be stressed.

I took the glass off the top of the tank, figured that might help with air flow. Didn't want a glass top on any ways, but I previously had a sand sifting goby and I think we all know why I had to put it on- but it still got out, which is amazing (yet sad)

cd77 · #9 09/27/2007, 10:10 PM

Do you have much surface agitation for gas exchange? Your tank description seems like you would, as you have plenty of flow -- I've only seen O2 issues with FW cichlids and they usually gravitate towards the top of the tank (at first) gasping for air. I would try to get your temp down in the 78-83 range if you can -- taking the glass top off as you did may help with this.

Any chance you could have two same-gender clowns fighting it out, or have you had them for a while without issue? What else do you have in the way of livestock?

victor_c3 · #10 09/27/2007, 10:25 PM

If you're running a skimmer I'd think that you would have plenty of aireation.

treminga · #11 09/27/2007, 10:32 PM

Top is off, now that the lights are off the clown seems to be doing better. Might have been a heat issue. Going to turn down the gauge on the heater, but it already only reads 75* (wonder if that unit could be defective). I can't imagine my MH's are putting out enough heat to raise it to 86 during the course of the day. I can touch the housing and its not that hot, warm maybe, but not hot.

I have another identical heater, maybe I will try that. Figure I should never see the heater on at all around 86, I will try to pay more attention

Vitaly · #12 09/27/2007, 11:41 PM

I do not think that temp is the problem. Many hobbyists have their tanks running in the low-to-mid 80's and there are no detrimental effects observed in the livestock. Moreover, many natural, shallow reefs reach temperatures in the high 80's during the warm seasons.

For example, Key West FL hits 87 in the months of July and Aug.
http://www.nodc.noaa.gov/dsdt/cwtg/satl.html

With respect to temperature dependence of oxygen saturation, it should be noted that at a salinity of 1.026 and a temp at 77F, oxygen saturation has been measured to be 6.9mg/l. At 86F, saturation only drops to 6.4mg/l. Physiologically a change of 0.5 mg/l will not make any difference.

I am more curious about the other behaviors of the fish.

Is the small, male clown eating?

Is the small, male clown gasping/breathing rapidly/flaring his gills?

Are his feces different than normal (eg. white and stringy)?

Those things above may be indicative of disease. If he is eating just continue to observe him. If he is gasping/flaring gills then he may have a gill infection. If the feces are discolored/string then he may have an intestinal infection. In my opinion any of the above would be cause for the lethargy that you are observing.

Peter Eichler · #13 09/27/2007, 11:44 PM

Don't let the alarmists worry you, there's absolutely nothing wrong with your temperature IMO and I highly doubt that's the problem. In fact 84 is MUCH closer to natural averages than the 78 suggested in this thread and the oxygen level difference will be insignifigant. Sounds like something that could just be normal clownfish behavior, keep in mind this is a fish that will rub up against a powerhead for several hours a day and consider it home. If the fish is still eating and doesn't appear to be have rapid gill movements I wouldn't worry too much about it.

treminga · #14 09/28/2007, 12:21 AM

Today he did not seem to really be all that interested in food, just kinda hung back. Once the lights were off though he seems to be swimming a lot more comfortably.

The Cardinal · #15 09/28/2007, 02:46 AM

They do lie on the sand now and then and I don´t think there is anything wrong with your fish, he was probably chilling on the beach like mine do

.

Johnsteph10 · #16 09/28/2007, 07:46 AM

I think you guys are missing the key bit of information here...the temperature was likely going up. The temperature swing is what you have to worry about!

What did it start out as?

As long as a temp is stable, then 82-83 is sort of ok. 78-80 degrees is the average temp for most reefs worldwide.

NewMariner · #17 09/28/2007, 07:57 AM

Just out of curiosity have you checked for Ammonia? Is this tank cycled?

My son who is 3 got into his 8g cube and poured a 16oz can of food into his tank. I immediately started to do water changes..of course I went through a cycle again. The worst of it the clowns started laying on the bottom of the tank like yours, and then started breathing heavier...I did 100% water change and they came back to life swimming like normal...

By chance could you be going through a cycle?

filmoholic · #18 09/28/2007, 09:17 AM

If the clown is coming out and swimming when the lights are out it could just have something picking on it during the day.It could just be scared of another fish.

stuccodude · #19 09/28/2007, 09:39 AM

my clowns are always doing something weird, laying on their sides, not moving, finding a new home for a day, seperating from each other for a few hours, etc, i use to stress on it but i think they just want attention

aastretch64 · #20 09/28/2007, 10:26 AM

According to his post ammonia levels are at 0. How long have you had the clowns?

How do you get the water temp so high. I have a 46g tank with 2 175 watt bulbs 4" from the water, my house is around 78f and the tank never goes above 79f.

Alex

treminga · #21 09/28/2007, 10:37 AM

Kinda what I was wondering myself, I don't think it should get that warm. I have 2x 250W + 2x 110 VHO. Single heater set at 78. Hard to believe the lights would raise it that much when I can touch them without issue.

Peter Eichler · #22 09/29/2007, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnsteph10
I think you guys are missing the key bit of information here...the temperature was likely going up. The temperature swing is what you have to worry about!

What did it start out as?

As long as a temp is stable, then 82-83 is sort of ok. 78-80 degrees is the average temp for most reefs worldwide.

Why does a temperature need to be stable? The reef experiences fairly large temperature swings every day. Many people with very successful aquariums experience temperature swings every day. Why should someone worry about temp. swings?

Vitaly · #23 10/01/2007, 09:25 AM

treminga,

Any updates on the condition of the clownfish...has the condition/behavior improved?

Maika'i · #24 10/01/2007, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
Why does a temperature need to be stable? The reef experiences fairly large temperature swings every day. Many people with very successful aquariums experience temperature swings every day. Why should someone worry about temp. swings?

then why is reef dying around the world, such as the carribean, because a 1 degee temperature rise

Vitaly · #25 10/01/2007, 11:57 AM

Maika'i,

Nobody said anything about overall increase in global temperature and coral reef death. Indeed, there is plenty of data that supports the theory that rising (overall) temperatures do contribute to coral disease and death.¹

Rather what Peter Eichler, myself and many other members are saying is that temperature fluctuation is a natural occurrence on a reef. Moreover, a tank temperature in the 80's is not uncommon for a natural reef either. This is evidenced by data showing that water temperatures near various reefs will reach as high as 87 degrees.²

Now, getting back to the original situation, as posted, has there been any change in the behavior/health of the clownfish?

1. Thermal Stress and Coral Cover as Drivers of Coral Disease Outbreaks.
Bruno JF, et al. http://biology.plosjournals.org/perl...o.0050124&ct=1

2. http://www.nodc.noaa.gov/dsdt/cwtg/satl.html