Can I make $2000 in my refugium?

[JPMagyar]

O.K. I admit its late and I'm tired of reading and searching the forum for a complete answer, and yes I promise to read Anthony Calfo's book, but here's my question. . .

Is it reasonable to think I could raise and sell enough frags to make $2000 to $5000 a year in my 75 gal (48x18x20) refugium.

I had thought I would buy premium wild acro colonies from Marine Depot at $80 to $90, break them up and grow out the frags using a 1000 watt bulb for relatively rapid growth. If I were to use only half of my refugium to start I estimate I would have enough room to grow out 150 to 200 frags at a time using the eggcrate I got from Home Depot.

I'm figuring every 60 to 90 days:

5 x $90 = ............................................................$450 frags
90 days x 8kwhrs/day x .12 $/kwhr = .................$72 electricity
misc plugs etc ......................................................$10

total costs ............................................................$500 to $600

sales $7 to $9 x 150 = ...................................................$1000 to $1400

net .........................................................................$500 to $800

so if I do this 4 times a year I clear $2000 or more.


Mind you I realize none of this includes the costs of my hobby, and I already own all the equipment so capital costs are not a consideration. Right now I estimate I am spending $3500 to $5000 per year to maintain my 280 gallon display tank with a 300 gal sump and a 75 gal refugium


Two very high end LFS shops in my area have already indicated an interest in any acro frags I grow.

Am I dreaming or are some of you already doing this?

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Joe

[traveller7]

Factor in some amount for specimen loss, which is certain.

Factor in "browning/color changes" slowing down the frag sales.

Best of luck.

[grim]

Technically, if you put corals (predators) in your refugium (refuge from predators), you turn it into a propogation setup, not a refugium.

Fragging out wild corals goes against most reefers reasoning for buying frags in the first place. We buy and trade frags that are captive propogated to avoid having to take corals from the wild. Doing what you describe runs contrary to the real goal of fragging.

You also mention something about growing corals.. Seems more like you are describing something more along the lines of a coral chop shop.

jb

[stevemc]

I agree with grim and traveller7, but first I agree with traveller7- in an ideal world all your frags will turn into beautiful colonies and all you have to do is check top off water, every 3 months change co2 and fill calcium reactor, change bulbs every year, pay electric bill once a month, collect 2000 dollars 4 times a year. But in a real world there are many problems, weekly sometimes. Slow growth for some reason or another, low alk or calcium for some reason, high phosphates, RTN, die offs, flatworms, coral eating nudis, red bugs, I could go on but you know what I'm saying. Also you will have product saturation. You will have to have great frags and a good selection to sell. But 150 frags? I see frags at most LFS sitting for a while, and they dont have 15 frags. You will have to travel around. Not saying you cant but it will be hard. In a hobby that is growing with many folks getting rid of frags monthly at meetings, and selling to LFS, etc. Dont expect purple and pink colonies from every frag. Also on grims statement( JPMagyar I read yours this morning but had to keep working) anyone buying frags will want to see what they or the mother colony looked like. Everyone knows tank raised colonies are easier growing than wild caught, because they are used to captive conditions. And the colors should be closer to bright purple and pink than, pale or beige corals. Plus the fact that you are not taking from the wild. Yes, they came from the sea once. But wouldnt it be nice to not take from the sea? But , yes it can be done, and is. Steve.

[JPMagyar]

Hello there all -

First let me say I totally agree with all that you guys are saying, and thanks so much for helping me sharpen my thoughts. Here's what I'm dreaming of to overcome some of the issues mentioned above:

1 - The Chop Shop - (Very effective way of putting it )
I am hoping that I can cut 20 or so frags off of each wild colony and then keep the base and grow it back out. Over time I would like to build up a dozen or so large colonies of various colors and types from which to do all the future fragging. My goal is, most definitely, to use all 100% home grown frags. In fact if somone knows of a retail operation that sells large cultured coral colonies I would gladly pay 3 or 4 times the price of a wild colony to get one.

2- Loss of a Refugium -
I have plenty of space and an extra 150 gal tank as well as my 300 gal sump which has nothing in it except water, so if this actually worked even a little I could switch over to a larger area in the other tanks. I chose my refugium to start because I keep half of it as plain sand, so it was clean and simple to lay a piece of 24 x 15 eggcrate ontop of some posts and voila instant mini frag grow out area. But, I definitely want to keep my refugium for growing Chaetomorpha, Ulva, Dichtyota, and Sargassum algaes.

3 - Product Saturation -
Here I think I have a slight location advantage. First I am really talking about $1000 gross $500 net per quarter or 150 frags every 3 months divided among 3 area shops. Which works out to 15 to 20 frags per month per shop, and these shops simply can not keep colored coral frags in stock. The key here I believe is color and professional looking frags with growth on the base of a clean looking plug. Honestly I have no idea what percentage of the frags I produce will be colorful. My experience in my display tank so far is that under 1000 watt 10000K lighting any coral quickly gains amazing color.

4 - Disasters -
I have no answer for this except to say I know all to well to expect the unexpected. This summer I lost all my fish and all my acro's during the East Coast blackout because I was away on vacation and was unable to get anyone over to my house in time and our power was out for 28 hours in total. Needless to say I have since purchased a whole house generator that runs automatically when the power goes out, but that only covers the known.

Anyways, sorry for the long reply, but you guys really got me thinking and it helps just to write down my thoughts. Heck now that I think about it, it actually would be kinda funny if I had 100 purple frags that I couldn't sell and had to give them away on RC for free. Nothing like buying a few friends to make yourself popular .


Viszlat,


Joe

[traveller7]

You farm it and put me on the discard list

Reduction in my cost and I'll color it up under 20K's.

Best my friend.

[minfinger]

I'd be careful with that 1000W light...IMO you'd be better to go with 2 250W or 2 400W. You'd end up with less bleaching or browning.

I think, I read a lot of stuff. Good luck though. I'm currently trying to do the same thing. And yes you can make money doing it.

[ejocam]

No walk in the park, but with vision and determination, it can be done. Problems will arise, how you react will benefit your success. There has to be a starting point somewhere and you've passed that point somwhere down the line. What are you willing to sacrifce? It will demand your time and heart, believe me. Good Luck!

Eric

[jjmg]

I can't give you an answer or even a wild guess about the $ numbers, but ALL captive props came from the wild at one time or another. And it seems to me if you can take a few wild corals and start new props, you'll be helping the hobby, which is much different than buying a wild coral and watching it die in a tank that can't meet it's needs.

There are people doing very well at what your saying, so with some study and knowledge you should be able to also. Don't forget a lot of hard work.

PS when you start making wonderful frags, keep this post in mind!!!

[stevemc]

Ouch, my reply sounded like a repremand. Sorry. I feel you could do as you asked about, just dont have your hopes set too high, but YES you can do it and many do. I would start off selling frags at your local meetings, then shops, then, if you cant sell all, on the 'net. I like the ones that show a picture of the frag against a 2"x2" grid so you can see how big it is. Also you would know what color you are getting. Good luck, Steve.

[Gerde]

You should talk directly to others that are trying to do this. I know sawjack had some sweet stuff on his site northstarcorals.com, but from the sounds of it, the work was just too much to keep up with, and he is getting out. There have been others on this board that have done the same thing, I would really do my homework first. Talk to some people who are operating currently as a business to see how it is going.

[zulu_principle]

Over time you can and will saturate your market unless you have a constantly changing supply, look for others across the country to arrange trade of frags (at wholesales levels) so you are able to diversify your frags. I do this in Canada and some of the colonies from the east are things we have not seen in the West.

Also you need to ensure that should you introduce new lighting that you dont now have a problem with heat, chillers are expensive to purchase and expensive to operate during the summer but are necessary.

On lighting, I always hope that when someone takes a frag from me it will look better under their lighting, so I only fire iwaski 6500K bulbs at the fishroom knowing that most fire much better (appealing) bulbs in thier home displays.

JMHO



Wendell

[cbonito]

Go for it!

If you're not going to lose by failing, then there's no reason not to try. You can't do mathematical calculations to figure it out though. There are too many factors involved.

If you can support your own habit for free by doing it, then that would be great, no?

That's what I'm doing now. I can produce and sell enough to support the hobby, and some, and I expect nothing more from it.

That's my take.

[holeinone1972]

Here is my point of view. If you love the hobby keep it that a hobby. This is damn near an impossible way to make money.

Unless you can setup a greenhouse you are not going to make it profitable.

Now if you simply have to much money to throw away I say go ahead.

Do it for love, but doing it for money is a bad idea...... trust me.

Rob
ECC

[Soltaker]

Originally posted by cbonito

That's what I'm doing now. I can produce and sell enough to support the hobby, and some, and I expect nothing more from it.

That's my take.

That's EXACTLY what I am hoping to do in the future. Sell enough so that my hobby pays for itself. Anything above and beyond the breaking-even point is a bonus

[gwrulzmylife]

sounds like a plan

[JPMagyar]

[JPMagyar]

So here's the setup.



I figured I'd throw out an update every couple of months with a progress check, both as an incentive for myself to actually follow through as well as an open lesson to anyone else considering the same.

My first question for today to anyone following along is should I move my setup to the sump and try big or keep it small in the refugium for now? The light hood only has one 1000 watt 6500kelvin bulb and 2 actinic VHO's currently. It has room for a second bulb, so in theory I could hang it over my sump with 2 MH's and significantly increase the number of frags.




My second question is what to buy as a starter? I had thought to go "pot luck" with Marine Depot Live and simply order 3 large Acroporas, but they don't specify what you will get very well, so I'm open to alternative suggestions.

That's it for today!

Happy Reefin'

Joe

[cwbroden]

Cool setup. I hope this works out for you. We need more people doing this on a small scale. The more you can grow and supply, the less others will take from the wild.

I'm starting the same thing myself right now. Not selling yet. Just getting a feel of time for growth, expenses, losses, etc...

[MiddletonMark]

I'd very much suggest keeping an eye on a number of sites to get something really interesting.
There's a good thread somewhere about where to buy SPS frags ... and I'd think even `non-frag' some are pretty good.

I see good stuff going thru some other places:
Premium Aquatics
Reefermadness
Phishy Business
to name just a few ... and IMO, if you're `buying wild' to start with maybe these would be good sources too [plus they're WYSIWYG]. Just a thought ... thanks for the pics!

[JPMagyar]

O.K. so here's my progress check.

Not very impressive so far. What I realized very quickly was that my refugium was not the right place to try this so, I rerigged the setup and moved the frag growout area to my sump. I will be adding a SeaSwirl and 130 lbs of LR to help.

I also decided to pick 5 or 6 wild colonies and only pull off 10 or 15 frags at a time then regrow the colony and pull off a few more frags. I have now begun to think that it may be upto a year before I am really ready to sell nice frags. I have a green, purple, red and blue colony which I have not yet fragged as well as a yellow, red, purple, and green frags taken from my own tank that I am trying to grow out as well (all acros). My goal now is to be able to have a line of a dozen or so colonies with 10 or 20 frags infront of each growing out to different sizes and all available for viewing on the web. Then take a few down to my LFS every month while offering them on the web as well, but obviously it will take me a while to get the mother colonies going.

Interestingly enough I am finding that the few people already doing this are rather tight lipped about the exact process they are using. Not that I blame them, I just thought it was a little humorous myself.





Joe

[firefish2020]

JP
The Book of Coral Propagation Vol2

[mcanavan69]

I wish I could do this as fast as I want, but the initial cost of MH bulbs and new tanks will give me more time to do my homework. I have found a lot of interesting information from www.garf.org They even have short vids on propagation.
Good luck, I hope you have great success.
Mark

[minfinger]

MH is not as expensive as most people think.

If you went with online vendors instead of Ebay.

Let say for example you wanted 2 250W MH and only used Electronic Ballasts instead of Magnetic. You can always upgrade.

250W Advance Magnetic M58 / H37 Ballast - $47 ea
http://www.hellolights.com/25unmagm58ba.html

250W Ushio 10K Bulbs - $89 ea
http://www.hellolights.com/2510us.html
OR
250W Iwasaki 10K Bulbs - $59 ea
http://www.hellolights.com/2565iw.html

MH Parabolic Reflector Set w/ Mogul Base - $29.95 ea
http://www.hellolights.com/methalparref.html

All you need is a little wire and some 3 prong plugs from HD or Lowes. About $30 total for both Lights.

So with the Ushio Bulbs, you're looking at a total of $343.90 +$30 for wires add $50 for shipping. Your about $420 total.

Now for Ebay prices.
I've bought 2 250W Sun 10Ks for about $60 shipped, great bulbs.
Reflectors I'm getting the ones above from Hellolights to replace my Street light hoods that I got.

Ballasts on Ebay. Hunt around, you can find them cheap. There is no need for the for the big bulky covers they sell with them, although they do keep everything hidden, if you've got extra room, you can buy those ballast kits for dirt cheap.

For example, this was a killer deal!
Also this 400W...You can find these all day long

There's no reason to think you need a ton of money to get into this hobby.

When I was looking at lighting for my 180G, I wanted to use 4 400W lights. I got quoted about $900, which I thought was a good deal, bulbs and all. That 400W on ebay, about $50 shipped, that's $200 if I could find 4 of them. $120 for 4 reflectors and mogul bases. Bulbs on ebay $35 a piece, it's a good deal at any price. So that's $140 So for the total, a 4 BULB 400W system, about $460. That's a $440 price difference from retail and I thought my buddy was hooking me up.

Another 400W Ballast
Most of the time these people have more than 1 on hand.

If you're interested in getting some good deals on the same stuff you get on Hellolights, my buddy at www.robsreef.com gets the same stuff they do and the prices are a little better. Check into it, email he what you're interested in and tell him Mike Infinger sent you.

To sum it up, it's not that expensive comparably, the best thing, you can still buy one setup at a time, grow some frags, and sell them, buy another setup and so on.

Mike

[JohnM99]

May I ask a beginner's question along the same line as this thread? Is it a reasonable idea to put a rack for frags inside a fuge? I have an extra T5 light hood, and thought I would put it over my Q tank and fuge - and have wondered why not put in a rack or shelf in my fuge to try and propagate corals for myself. Obviously as a beginner this will be a while away - and I have no plans of earning $$ but wondered if this might be a reasonable use of space in the fuge (45 gal) and my extra light.?? It would be easy to build a little rack and put it in the fuge before the spaghetti takes over completely.

Would this have much deleterious effect?

Thanks