Melev's new 280g Starfire tank thread

[NanoGurl]

Neat. Thanks!

[cbui2]

only takes few months and growing like wild flowers. awesome pics Marc and congrats with another split

[gkarshens]

Bad choice of words. I loved it too!

[melev]

I didn't take you seriously. I knew what you meant.

[melev]

Chromis count: 9
Anthias count: 8

So far so good.

And because I hate paying my electric bill, I thought I'd do a little research on my fishroom's window a/c unit for the past couple of days. I plugged the 110v cord into a Kill-o-watt device and from time to time checked on the numbers. Our weather has been nearly 100F, and humid. The unit pulls 117w when in fan mode only, and 715w (6.44 amps) when the compressor runs.

I noticed when my garage is closed, the trapped heat makes the a/c use higher wattage. It reported 835-845w, and once I opened the garage door to allow heat to vent out, the wattage came down as well.

The Kill-o-watt also tracks information. It recorded 22.49kwh in 44:02 hours. Looks like the compressor has been cycling on almost 50% of the time (although the circulation fan (117w) is running 24 hours a day. I'm going to keep it tracking for a few more days, and then get an average daily use from the total.

My current electricity rate is .14kwh and if my math is correct with the numbers I have on my scratch pad, the a/c is using 12.24kwh per day. After 7 days worth of power consumption have been collected, I can double check that math. For now, it appears I'm paying $1.71 a day to run the 8000BTU a/c unit during the summer months, or adding $51.39 to my utility bill by keeping the fishroom 75F and the reef 80F.

Btw, yesterday I noticed my central a/c was running non-stop and that the house had risen to 79F even though the thermostat setpoint was 76F. I called my a/c service to ask if they felt it was operating normally and they suggested I check the furnace filter. I buy the Filtrete ones that are pricey but last for 3 months, and it wasn't that old, yet it was completely covered with dust. It looked like dark gray fur; it was so thick. I bought a new one and replaced the old that evening, and today the unit operated as it should with the house staying at 76F. So those of you trying to save a few dollars off your monthly electric bill, check your filter as it will help reduce how long the a/c system has to run.

I can't wait for winter to return.

[erics3000]

Filters .Certainly helps the compresors drain..Interesting that much of a change. I changed the ac filter in my car a little bit ago and I thought the ac was good before.Whew the AC rocks in that car.

[MPH]

Marc,

You’re up late! For me its 12:45 PM. I’m in China at the moment. Have not been able to respond to you from several pages back, pre latest split, due to travel. It’s hard to catch up with you when you miss a few days.

Anyway, yes I’ve haven’t posted in while but have been keeping up with you all along, except for the fact that for some reason I don’t seem to be able to stay subscribed for more than 2 or 3 days in a row. Then I get cut off. After a few days, I realize it and have to play catch up again.

For the most part my system has done very well, considering when I bought it on eBay and moved it I was a total newbie. Other than having read posts on Reefcentral and a couple of other sources for a couple of months, I had no experience with reef keeping. I think most of my success can be credited to your thread and an excellent LFS. I actually should post some pics sometime of my tank 3 years ago and now. It’s still sitting on the same temporary stand (exposed 2X4’s) as it 3 years ago. Maybe then people would get off your case about finishing the woodwork!

The only bump along the way was one year ago when I was out of town and we had a 3 day power failure. My daughter who is pretty good at taking care of things in my absence thought the fish would be OK through the night and that the power would be back on soon. I the morning, everything was dead except for the mushrooms, which would have been happy to lose. The tank recovered quickly though. Have since added new fish, starfish (2 harlequin), hermits, snails and several SPS that are doing very well. The previous owner had 3 tangs in the 120 which thought was too much but I hated to lose them this way. But the population is a better balance now. There’s a whole house backup generator (18 kW) in the plan for this year. I still panic when I have to be away for any length of time.

If I haven’t said before, thanks for sharing you knowledge, experience, both good and bad, and you beautiful tank with all of us. I probably couldn’t have gotten to where I am without it.

[melev]

I'd love to see pictures of your tank Miles.

Regarding my thread, I guess the easiest thing for you to do is to bookmark the page where you left off since the email notifications aren't keeping you on track. You'd just have to rebookmark each time.

You are very welcome, and thank you for the kind thoughts.

[cbui2]

i know on this thread if i miss even 1/2 day, i would have to back track 2 pages just to keep up .

[boviac]

I'm wondering how the compressor would draw more current simply bc the garage door was shut. Most compressors simply run on or off. Maybe if the condensor part is not allowing the coolant to efficiently condense (garage door shut - trapped heat) that may in some way cause the compressor to work harder - draw more amps. I don't know how your fan works but I'm guessing it moves air from the fish room to the garage? If so it sounds like the fan might be having to push harder and be drawing more current with the garage door shut than open. Don't know as it is only a window unit. And after all, I don't know much more about A/C systems but I know those Kill-A-Watt's sure are cool!!!

I feel for you guys out there in the heat. Not really simply for the heat because its been 100 here too but we don't have that humidity problem at all. In fact, this was probably the most humid summer here at around 20-35% day and 50%-ish at night. Last summer, daytime highs would yield humidity of like 15%. I know I'm rubbing it in...

Air Filters should probably be checked more often if the system runs more often - Like this time of year. I know call me MOTO (Master Of The Obvious) Good thing you caught that. I recently let mine go for about a 100 hours (programmable thermostat keeps track) but I forgot that I had only a 30 day one in there and not the newer 3 month kind that I had stocked up on. Opps. Yup it was pretty dusty when I finally took it down. Plus I'm noticing there's quite a lot of apparent dust past the filter in the coil wrap as the vent pipe bends 90 degrees. I suppose I should go up there with a vacuum and clean it out.

Sorry too lazy to look up the geography of Ft Worth's location compared to the where the now downgraded tropical depresion that's supposed to dump more rain into the already saturated South Texas is supposedly landed. Hope this has a cooling effect for you either way. You guys need it!

[MPH]

Marc,

Do I win the prize for your farthest distance post, Shanghai, China?

I had a thread started when I first got the tank. I'll look up the link and post it. Haven't taken any new pic lately so will have to wait until I get back home in Sept.

If the outside temp that the air conditioner is discharging is high, the compressor has to work harder (gas temp is higher) and thus draws more energy.

Have to go back to work.

[poppin_fresh]

I really need to get one of those Kill-a-watts. I would love to know what my stuff is using for power. I have a suspicion that my return pump is drawing more power now that its getting older.

[erics3000]

Originally posted by boviac
I'm wondering how the compressor would draw more current simply bc the garage door was shut. Most compressors simply run on or off. Maybe if the condensor part is not allowing the coolant to efficiently condense (garage door shut - trapped heat) that may in some way cause the compressor to work harder - draw more amps. I don't know how your fan works but I'm guessing it moves air from the fish room to the garage? If so it sounds like the fan might be having to push harder and be drawing more current with the garage door shut than open. Don't know as it is only a window unit. And after all, I don't know much more about A/C systems but I know those Kill-A-Watt's sure are cool!!!

I feel for you guys out there in the heat. Not really simply for the heat because its been 100 here too but we don't have that humidity problem at all. In fact, this was probably the most humid summer here at around 20-35% day and 50%-ish at night. Last summer, daytime highs would yield humidity of like 15%. I know I'm rubbing it in...

Air Filters should probably be checked more often if the system runs more often - Like this time of year. I know call me MOTO (Master Of The Obvious) Good thing you caught that. I recently let mine go for about a 100 hours (programmable thermostat keeps track) but I forgot that I had only a 30 day one in there and not the newer 3 month kind that I had stocked up on. Opps. Yup it was pretty dusty when I finally took it down. Plus I'm noticing there's quite a lot of apparent dust past the filter in the coil wrap as the vent pipe bends 90 degrees. I suppose I should go up there with a vacuum and clean it out.

Sorry too lazy to look up the geography of Ft Worth's location compared to the where the now downgraded tropical depresion that's supposed to dump more rain into the already saturated South Texas is supposedly landed. Hope this has a cooling effect for you either way. You guys need it!

I
t depends on the efficency of the room. If it is harder to cool the room then the compressor stays on longer. Longer means $$$..What Marc was talking about is when he opened the garage door a lot of heat released and his compressor didn't have to work as hard.

I don't know about the houses in Texas but they do'nt put insulation over the roof for the garage part on the new houses in FLorida. I had a friend that put insulation over hers and it made a big difference. Marc have you thought about insulating the garage door if you haven't already. I have seen a few guys on RC and they all claim a noticeable drop in room.

[patej]

looking good

[boviac]

Thanks Eric - I think I understand what you're saying and agree with you. But what I don't understand is, why? What I was commenting on, which I now understand I didn't make clear, was the increase in amps his Kill-O-Watt showed the A/C drew when the garage door was open compared to shut. I understand the compresser having to work 'harder' when the door is shut but usually that means not working harder just working for a longer time at the same amp draw. I really don't know enough about the finite operations of an A/C - more over, the specifics of THIS A/C. I was simply just curious for someone to maybe correctly ID why the A/C amp draw was higher when in a closed, hotter environment. For me, I'm probably wrong, and the last thing I want is one of those - No-I'm-Right, YOU'RE-ALL-WRONG things to go on here - I'm just curious about how that can happen. Does it have anything to do with the TXV limiting the actual liquid flow to the compressor maybe so it can run faster, thereby allowing higher amp draw? I dunno. If I think too much and no one else cares - forgettaboutdit.

[boviac]

MPH, hmmm. gas temperature higher. I'm thinking..... But the compressor can only pump liquid (correct?) so either way the coolant coming out of the condensor has to be a liquid. But would a higher gas temperature result in a higher liquid temperature and cause the compressor to work harder? And if so by that large of an amp factor? Interesting. Thanks, I'll have to think more about this one.

[jnarowe]

I can't explain it technically either, but I know it's true. I have done the same comparissons. It's like when Summertime is here and my store's compressors hit a marginal area where it's not just overcoming the extra temp. inside, but the temp. the compressors themselves are subject to. One thing about compressors is that the manufacturers are very specific, as well as are many local codes, about how much room should be around the air compressor for proper air flow. With the garage doors closed, Marc is not getting the flow the compressor needs, and that has some eefect on its operational efficiency.

Hey Marc, saw on the news you guys are getting hammered...you live on a hill or what?

[token]

I believe it's drawing more amps because it requires the energy to lower the gas's temperature to that of its liquid state due to the ambient room temperature. Said another way, because the garage is closed and hotter, it takes more energy (the compressor is working harder) to lower the coolant to liquid temperature.

I believe that's a function of the first law of thermal dynamics, or the conservation of energy rule.

[boviac]

Token, I don't understand how the non-electrical heat exchanger (condenser) can cause an increase in energy consumption. That's the only way to lower the liquid temperature. The energy consuming compressor comes after the condenser. I do appreciate the help to understand this. I believe I understand the thermodynamic laws, what I don't understand is the 120-130W increase with simply the garage door closed.

[token]

Originally posted by melev
Our weather has been nearly 100F, and humid. The unit pulls 117w when in fan mode only, and 715w (6.44 amps) when the compressor runs.

I noticed when my garage is closed, the trapped heat makes the a/c use higher wattage. It reported 835-845w, and once I opened the garage door to allow heat to vent out, the wattage came down as well.

The Kill-o-watt also tracks information. It recorded 22.49kwh in 44:02 hours. Looks like the compressor has been cycling on almost 50% of the time (although the circulation fan (117w) is running 24 hours a day. I'm going to keep it tracking for a few more days, and then get an average daily use from the total.

boviac: I think the problem for Marc may lie in the entire situation of a closed garage. Because the air is not circulating, inside the garage or to the outside, the air becomes even hotter near the A/C unit as it runs. It will rise and fall vertically but will not circulate much through the whole garage.

Because the condenser is acting as an energy exchange, this process becomes more "expensive", or less efficient, the longer the exchange takes place; the unit by being enclosed itself is working against its ability to cool, resulting in longer cooling cycles and increased demand on the compressor.

In truth, the condenser forms a loop around the compressor. On one side is the cooler gas, after it is compressed. It then migrates around the coils to the expansion valve as it becomes hot and approaches the condenser again. The internal fan is moving air over the hotter side of the coil and out the grill, cooled by the cooler side of the condenser's coils. As the air in the garage heats even further due to the unit's on state, the unit has to work that much harder to get the target temperature of the room.

The actual amount of increased amperage draw is relative to the BTU of the unit itself and its ability to lower the temperature; the more gas, the more BTU and the more cooling it can do. Of course, that efficiency comes at the higher amp draw of a larger compressor but that may play out positively if the unit is on less. Another way of lowering that is to get the garage itself cooler. As mentioned, insulation will help. Circulating the air in the garage will help too. I think Marc is running his A/C at the target temp of his tank, but if he is using it at a lower temp, more like we would enjoy in our homes, raising it would alleviate some of the draw. The downside to that is that it might cause the cooling system of the tank to run more and then we start the cycle of calculating consumption all over.

I don't know if I clarified that much. I hope it helps.

[token]

I should add that the the continuous coil's sides have specific designations and that may be where the confusion lies. The cooler side, after the compressor, is the "condensor" and the hotter side, after the expansion valve, is the "evaporator". In truth, though, as I noted, it's one continuous loop.

[sdf_beanhead]

Could it have something to do with temperature affecting how efficently the electricity is used by the compressor due to higher heat. That is one thing we all know about electronics is to keep them cool. Just thought I would throw that out there.

One thing I do know about power usage (regarding our tanks) is don't tell your spouse/significant other how much it costs to run it. I figured mine up and I wished I didn't even know

[MrSpiffy]

Off-topic, I know. But you realize, Marc, that you have had nearly 530,000 views in just these three pages..?

[melev]

I think that is cumulative, to be honest. Once I looked up all the splits and did some additions. I doubt it is only for these particular pages.

We did get some strong winds and rain yesterday, but my area didn't have any problems. I've not checked the paper yet to see what the news reported.

It was interesting reading your thoughts about how & why the power is being consumed based on heat in the garage. I don't keep a thermometer out there, but it gets very hot in there. By opening the garage door, it makes a big difference in the ambient temperature. If I buy those security gates I'd mentioned a couple of months ago, I could leave it open more often.

The ceiling to my garage is insulated, as I blew that stuff in myself a few years ago.

[MrSpiffy]

ahhhh.... DOH! I kinda thought there was a lot more to this thread. I just saw the huge number of views.