Barry Bonds the good and bad.

[mr pink floyd]

MINE

[Cubman777]

Looks like BB picked out a face from the ancient gallery

[55semireef]

[D-Rod]

[D-Rod]

Before/After Steroids

[55semireef]

lol

[beerguy]

You're completely missing the point. The whole point is that he did nothing wrong. Baseball supported, allowed, and encouraged that behavior. If you want to berate someone/something, start with baseball in general.

[Cubman777]

Your missing the point.

[Orchids]

There is no point. It is Chaos!!!

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by bluecarpet
But think what you like for i know he is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, and i know where your going with this wolverine.

I'm glad you saw it coming, and just hope you realize how ridiculous it seems for you to say that in your posts.

Now, that said, I do think he was doing steroids, and I also don't think there is much doubt about it. the physical signs all point to it, the timing points to it. It's just a matter of proving it.
I do agree with Beerguy. This is the bed that MLB made and now they have to lie in it. Even if you ignore the steroids issue, you also have the ball change, which also increased homeruns, and I think that alone should make a separate set of records for before and after the switch.

As for the steroids. It's true that they won't help hand-eye coordination, but, as a few people have mentioned, they will increase power, so his slugging percentage should go up (I don't know if it has). The increased strength can also increase bat speed, which would be another advantage. OTOH, you also have to consider the fact that he's likely been playing against a lot of juiced pitchers. You think Bonds, Sosa, Plameiro, Maguire, etc were the only ones doing it? I think that steroids were at least as rampant as what the most pessimistic observers have been saying, so if anything, at that point, they were levelling the playing field.

The other issue with steroids that I think does give him an advantage over the old timers is returning from injuries. It's astounding how quickly he can get back from surgery and injuries. And he seems to be healing more quickly as he ages, which is more than a little suspicious. Without his fantastic healing/rehabbing/recuperating ability, he wouldn't be around for nearly as long, wouldn't play in as many games, wouldn't be in as good of shape for those he did play in, and, in all likelihood, would not be near the record.

I'm not convinced that the negative testing means that he's clean. HGH is essentially untestable (they're getting closer), and there are other things that are very hard to track, like "flax seed oil".

Maybe in a few years he'll write a book called "If I Took Them".

Dave

[six.line]

I think beerguy has a point in that you can't call out Bonds without calling out the league.

This whole thing is a mess.

Of course he took 'roids. So did McGwire. So did Palmeiro. In my eyes, all three of these guys' accomplishments (as well as many others) are tainted. Palmeiro hurt the worse because he pointed that petulant little finger at the inquiry committee and emphatically denied taking them. Then when he tested positive... ugh. I don't want to relive that.

This sucks. It's a bad thing for baseball. I wish I knew how to fix it. I wonder if we can just start clean, let the Bonds thing die, and wait for someone new to come along.

By the way... The McGwire/Sosa home run wars didn't save baseball. Cal Ripken Jr. did. Anyone who disagrees is a fool beyond saving. :P

beerguy: You're missing the point. Anyone involved with taking steroids did something wrong. They sacrificed integrity for money. This includes Bonds, Palmeiro, McGwire, AND the league.

[Sk8r]

Hurrah for Cal!

And if we just want to open a topic on the use of 'roids and other enhancements in sport, period, let's just say---baseball is squeaky-clean by comparison.

What do you do when you're a kid on a 'clean team', and you're small enough you're going to get hurt going up physically against a team with players roughly the size of refrigerators?

What do you do when you're a hurt hitter on a team that needs you badly?

The stuff's floating around out there, it's not stigmatized enough, and I think a little public outrage ought to give some second thoughts to a kid balancing between should I, I can be like that guy, and that thing young people never think about: what's it going to do to me when I'm 60?

[beerguy]

Originally posted by six.line

beerguy: You're missing the point. Anyone involved with taking steroids did something wrong. They sacrificed integrity for money. This includes Bonds, Palmeiro, McGwire, AND the league.

How so? They were playing by the rules of the game.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Originally posted by beerguy
You're completely missing the point. The whole point is that he did nothing wrong. Baseball supported, allowed, and encouraged that behavior. If you want to berate someone/something, start with baseball in general.

I think you are missing the point. He did do something wrong. Not only did he test positive for amphetamines in the past by the league, but also broke the laws of society. Just because baseball heads were loving the money and turning a blind eye in no way makes it o.k.

[Old Yeller Tang]

Originally posted by DaddyJax
I disagree with the second statement due to the fact that it is Hank Aaron's record he is breaking and everyone loves Hank!

Are you kidding! The poor guy had to live with death threats!!

[beerguy]

Trust - I'm not a fan of the guy. I'm just saying that you can't just condemn Barry for this. If you're appalled by it you have to condemn the entire sport, as it exists currently.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Originally posted by six.line
I think beerguy has a point in that you can't call out Bonds without calling out the league.

This whole thing is a mess.

Of course he took 'roids. So did McGwire. So did Palmeiro. In my eyes, all three of these guys' accomplishments (as well as many others) are tainted. Palmeiro hurt the worse because he pointed that petulant little finger at the inquiry committee and emphatically denied taking them. Then when he tested positive... ugh. I don't want to relive that.

This sucks. It's a bad thing for baseball. I wish I knew how to fix it. I wonder if we can just start clean, let the Bonds thing die, and wait for someone new to come along.





By the way... The McGwire/Sosa home run wars didn't save baseball. Cal Ripken Jr. did. Anyone who disagrees is a fool beyond saving. :P

Very well said.

To baseball fans Cal was better/bigger....but to drawing people who could care less to the game, it was sosa/big mac by a big margin. You are too far in the woods on this one.

[Old Yeller Tang]

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=1

[gtrestoration]

Baseball was looking to clean things up but collective bargaining agreements were difficult to complete with any mention of substance abuse.

What were the penalties for players like Steve Howe, repeatedly suspended (7 times), banned for life (over-turned in arbitration)?

When you look back there are many things players may have used to enhance their abilities on game day that would have landed you and I in jail.

For me it comes down to morals, those that made a choice to carry on illegal activities (against the law) don't deserve my fan support. * or not, my opinion of these records wont change.

SteveU

[dendronepthya]

Originally posted by Wolverine
HGH is essentially untestable (they're getting closer), and there are other things that are very hard to track, like "flax seed oil".[/B]

One more thing to add about the flax seed oil. In Bond's grand jury testimony, he talked about how the "clear" was administered, which was "under the tongue." It was errily similar to how Jason Giambi described how he was administered steroids from Balco Labs in the very same grand jury testimony. Claiming he did not knowingly take steroids while randomly putting flax seed oil under his tongue (because that makes a lot of sense) doesn't pass my "do you think I am stupid?" test.

The fact that Bonds has not tested postive does not go a long way with me. The testing available is lightyears behind the labs trying to produce invisible performance enhancers. This is especially true in MLB where they outlawed steroids decades ago, but only instituted testing recently.

[bluerug]

Originally posted by Old Yeller Tang
Are you kidding! The poor guy had to live with death threats!!

So do a lot of loved people. MLK, JFK, Mother Teresa, etc,etc.

[six.line]

How so? They were playing by the rules of the game.

Which rules? Nothing official as far as I know. The league definitely turned a blind eye in hopes of selling more tickets and signing more TV deals. Then when the public caught a whiff of what was going on and the extent of it and cried foul, then the league came forward and shook its finger menacingly.

I think you're right about singling out Bonds. He should not bear the guilt of this alone, because he is not alone in being guilty. If you're upset with him, then the list of people to be upset with is a long one. I know my list is.

(By the way I keep adding to this thing as more thoughts come up rather than just keep adding posts... sorry if it's confusing.)

[bluerug]

Originally posted by beerguy
Trust - I'm not a fan of the guy. I'm just saying that you can't just condemn Barry for this. If you're appalled by it you have to condemn the entire sport, as it exists currently.

Not everyone in the sport takes roids, remember that. And its not just BB thats taking the hit, big mark, jason giambi, and the list goes on and on. What about the great that dont take roids, David Wright, Jose Reyes, Francur, Chipper, Clemens, etc, etc.

[dkh0331]

Now that he has the record, at least until ARod breaks it in 8-9 years, will bonds get into the HOF on his first ballot? The HOF voters sent a pretty strong message by not voting McGwire in.

[bluerug]

Originally posted by beerguy
How so? They were playing by the rules of the game.

Steroids usage is by no means the rules of baseball.