Why does reef crystals only have 320 Ca?

[2thdeekay]

Originally posted by bertoni
All right, let's leave the squabbling to some other channel. This forum is for chemistry questions.

I agree

IMHO, the best investigators ask questions when presented with odd looking data. The worst investigators make immediate judgements.

If anyone has other numbers to post, please do. If people want to send me samples of their salt, I'd be willing to do a standardized testing. Of course, we could have more than one person do standardized tests... Any other volunteers to test samples?

Besides standard reef tests, I have access to a chem lab, including mass spec.

[Nanz]

Originally posted by barrman
i consistently seem to get ~360ppm ca with reef crystals. alk is always on the high end at 14dKH +. I've started dosing my fresh mixed sw with calcium.

i wonder if its how i'm mixing it. i generally fill a 5g bucket with rodi water, then add the salt all at once, then mix with a large spatula, then add a powerhead and let age for at least a day.

i wonder if i mixed while adding the salt, if less ca would precipitate (if thats even the cause of my low rc ca readings)

Same here.. Reef Crystals at 1.026
Ca: 360ppm (Salifert)
Mg: 1250 ppm (Salifert)
Alk: 164ppm = 9.18dKH (Lamotte)

[bdare]

Hey Nanz,

My number look almost identical to yours. My Alk however tests at 12 with Salifert.

Ben

[Boomer]

I have not been following this thread, so I have skipped allot. I don't know why there is still arguing or who is on what side of the issue. F & S had some bad lots numbers with low Ca++, so it would seem. This is not the only forum showing these low values.

From another forum yesterday
SG-1.025
Alk- 4.34 meq/ l
Ca- 320
Mg- ~1145-1200
Nitrate- 0


I have not tested my tank for calcium yet however in the new batch I made last night with reef crystals at 1.025 saltinity all my paramaters were zero except for phosphate which was at 0.5 ppm, ALK 3.6, PH 8.2, and calcium at 350 (using tap water)


For me, using DI water, RC mixes up at 1.025 with around 360ppm Ca and about 8 dKH (2.8 meq/l)

[Billybeau1]

Everything's cool Boomer. We are just trying to get to the bottom of this. Seems you may be right. Just for giggles, I ordered a bucket of RC from Drs Foster & Smith. Should be here tomorrow. I recently got a small bag from the lfs and it was fine. I didn't care for the response one of our members got from Drs Foster & Smith so I thought I'd see for myself.

[bdare]

Well,

I will say I replied on the Drs forum and they are sending me a new bucket. It will be here Saturday. I'll test that one and see if I get any different results as well

Ben

[Boomer]

OK Billy buddy

Just remember guys the new bucket may be OK or not OK. One of you may get a good bucket and the other a crap bucket And we will be starting all over again

[bdare]

I smell what you're stepping in boomer.

But seriously... how funny would it be if I got the good bucket and billy gets the crap bucket... Hmmmm

[Billybeau1]

[USC-fan]

anyway to get the batch number off the 160gal RC buckets?

[Mike O'Brien]

My last two buckets both say RC1-160P 03/05. Same as Mr.Ugly. That's all I could find on the bucket. All the barcode numbers match as well. I got the last bucket on 10/05/07. The previous one was 02-16-07.

I'm thinking the 160p is the mixer, and 03/05 is the date of manufacture.

[USC-fan]

Mine says the same thing and i brought mine from Drsf&S on April 12, 2007.

I plan to mix a batch 5 gal today and test it, might send a sample off to AWT since i have a couple samples saved up. I wonder if this new RC salt bucket i started using is causing all these problems with my tank over the last months.....

[Boomer]

I'm thinking the 160p

RC1-160P 03/05. Reef Crystals Formula 1, 160 gallon pail, March 2005, date of manufacture.

UPC: 051378 017060 or 051378 017008 or 51378 014007

051378 are always the same for this product, only the last 5 numbers change.


And if you see this on a bucket

SSAS = Sea Salt Aquarium Systems

or

AQS01706= Aquarium Systems Salt. And the # are the last numbers of the Bar Code.

[Mike O'Brien]

LOL, that makes more sense. 160 gallon pail

[mksalt]

CD-16882 Reef Crystals 160 gallon mix $39.99 $31.99 = DFS

[Mr. Ugly]

Can/has someone with low Ca/Mg tested their salt with a Seachem Reef Status Mg/alk test kit? Mine isn't due to arrive for another week.

I'm wondering if there might have been a change in the carbonate/borate proportions as well.

[Billybeau1]

I have not found Seachems alk/mag test kit to be very reliable.

Testing is a PITA (compared to other test kits) and has much room for user error. Their calcium kit is not much better.

Don't go by their reference solution either because it matches their test kit. Go figure.

IMO, Seachem makes some great products. I use their Matrix carbon and their Calcium supplement (Reef Complete).

But they should get out of the test kit business IMO.

[gnikoli]

I used to use RC and also tried Tropic Marin Pro for quite a while but never saw a benefit in terms of health or behavior of corals. Came back to where I started: plain old IO. I have to add 200 ml of Ca and 600 ml of Mg for every 35 gallons (1.027 finished SG), but I had to fortify RC and TMP as well, although a little less so. This was determined over two years with different test kits and a good refractometer. I even got a free bucket of RC when I pointed this out to the manufacturer, but that bucket tested the same as all the others. It's IO, two-part solution and a calcium reactor for me until someone can come up with reasonable, objective data to justify the expense of other formulations.

[Mr. Ugly]

Originally posted by Billybeau1
I have not found Seachems alk/mag test kit to be very reliable.

Testing is a PITA (compared to other test kits) and has much room for user error.

Hmm... I haven't used the Reef Status alk/Mg test before. It's supposed to resolve to .1 meq/L.

Their Multi Test alk was the first kit I ever used. I didn't care for it. It was accurate to only .5 meq/L.

Normally, I use Salifert for alk and Mg. I used up all my Salifert Mg with all the recent extra testing and ordered the Seachem Mg because the Salifert wasn't available.

Originally posted by Billybeau1
Their calcium kit is not much better.

I've not had problems with the Seachem Reef Status Ca test. I do like to use a Salifert tip on the syringe to get a finer control on the titration. I'll titrate down to half drop amounts too.

The kinda weird thing on the Seachem Ca test is that you have to titrate to the bright blue endpoint instead of the first sign of color change. I was always taught to go by first perceptible color change. (I had the highest lab scores in my Quantitative Analysis class, btw.)

Fwiw, using Seachem I would measure 350ppm Ca for IO, and I used to get 420ppm Ca for RC that I bought locally.

I used IO for the longest time and just boosted the Ca and Mg. After trying a few buckets of RC from my LFS, I decided to switch.

That's when I stocked up on the DFS RC. And that salt has been reading 360ppm with the same test kit.

[SPStoner]

Originally posted by Boomer
I'm thinking the 160p

RC1-160P 03/05. Reef Crystals Formula 1, 160 gallon pail, March 2005, date of manufacture.

UPC: 051378 017060 or 051378 017008 or 51378 014007

051378 are always the same for this product, only the last 5 numbers change.


And if you see this on a bucket

SSAS = Sea Salt Aquarium Systems

or

AQS01706= Aquarium Systems Salt. And the # are the last numbers of the Bar Code.

You're close, Boomer

The 03/05 is the date of manufacture of the actual bucket, not the salt. There is no batch number or manufacture date for the actual product.
The UPC's mentioned:
051378 017060 = 160 Gallon pail of Reef Crystals
051378 017008 = 25 Gallon Box of Reef Crystals
51378 014007 = 50 Gallon bags of Instant Ocean

RC1- 160P is the manufacturers item number. Many manufacturers simply use the last 5 digits of the UPC as their item nmber, but in this case, Aquarium Systems uses a descriptor. RC1= Reef Crystals 1 per case
160P = 160 gallon pail

Or, take the 50 gallon bags of Reef Crystals. Item number is RC3-50. Reef Crystals, 3 per case 50 gallon bags.


Hope that helps decipher.

As to the issues at hand, I suggested this in the Foster and Smith forum as well, but if you are having problems with low readings, you should contact Aquarium Systems directly. Someone posted the contact info in the DFS thread. I have always had good response and service from them in the past.

HTH

[Boomer]

Well Stoner I was just taking a good guess

There is no batch number or manufacture date for the actual product.

Nothing tells us this How are these guys going to know which pails or bags are bad

[SPStoner]

Originally posted by Boomer
Well Stoner I was just taking a good guess

There is no batch number or manufacture date for the actual product.

Nothing tells us this How are these guys going to know which pails or bags are bad

An excellent guess!

And a good question. I know they used to do batch numbers years ago, but if memory serves, haven't for quite some time. I will see what I can find out, as I have some contacts at the company, being in the industry.

[bdare]

Hello all,

Yesterday I sent an email to Aquarium Systems. Today I got a reply:

Hello Ben,

I am aware of the thread on these forums, however we need to be notified if the is a discrepancy with our salt. I sample our products before they leave our facility (including all raw materials). We are strongly committed to our QC procedure and stand by the consistency of our products. But anyone that has a question or concern would need to send a sample of the salt to us. We usual require a half cup to a cup in a double Ziploc bag. Also need some general info (what type of testing equipment you are use for the Ca and Mg). When you mentioned the salinity, I am assuming you mean Specific gravity of 1.026 (or 35 ppt Salinity). Our reef crystal as per our bag instruction will give you 32ppt Salinity (1.024), at this level you see the Ca at 380-430(mEq/L) and the Mg Levels at 1150 -1300. Now at NSW you will see these levels elevated. In short if you use a 50 gallon bag with 50 gallons of water you will only get 31-32 ppt (or 1.024)
If you still have any salt please send us a sample (and any viable contact info and the best time to reach you)

I hope we can further help you out, and we thank you for your support,

Bertoni... needless to say I'll be shipping my salt to them instead of you. Thanks for offering to test it though! Hopefully we'll get an answer from the source! Also, perhaps others with this salt could send some back as well? I'll post the mailing address I recieve.

Ben

[Boomer]

I have some contacts at the company, being in the industry.

I use to. Tom Frakes is one of my best friends but is no longer with them so I'm up a creek now without a paddle

Our reef crystal as per our bag instruction will give you 32ppt Salinity (1.024), at this level you see the Ca at 380-430(mEq/L)

This is so funny

380-430(mEq/L) = 15,200 - 17,200 ppm Calcium

I know, a bad typo error. If that is their claim 380 - 430 ppm a 1.024 then at 1.026 = 415 - 465 ppm.

Why on earth do the still test at FOT levels of 32 ppt, especially since RC is a reef salt. There are no reefs at that level.

[Billybeau1]

Originally posted by Mr. Ugly
Fwiw, using Seachem I would measure 350ppm Ca for IO, and I used to get 420ppm Ca for RC that I bought locally.

That is about right for the numbers of IO and RC in my testing at 35ppt.





Ben, good work.