battery backup question.

MaGNuS042 · #1 04/22/2007, 12:37 AM

I recently purchased a 950va 540w ups backup unit to run my 2 tunze 6100s. They are rated at 45w each and i have them both plugged into the unit. How long can i expect them to last in a power outtage?

Icefire · #2 04/22/2007, 10:34 AM

6hours maybe, hard to tell, just try it

rsw686 · #3 04/22/2007, 02:24 PM

Probably 2 hours. The batteries inside UPS's are small and meant to just shutdown the computer, or provide power until a generate kicks in.

aninjaatemyshoe · #4 04/22/2007, 02:38 PM

That's something I wanted to know too. The computer battery backup devices usually have some wattage rating and an expected battery runtime (say for instance 300W for 1.5 hours). Now if one were to run a load of say 50W on that, would you expect to get 9 hours? It would be the same amount of energy expense after all.

MaGNuS042 · #5 04/22/2007, 02:40 PM

c'mon someone must know the math here.... Bean? Hahn?

aninjaatemyshoe · #6 04/22/2007, 02:42 PM

On a side note, I have a battery backup that I have never tested to see how long it'll run some equipment. However, I have it plugged to a Tunze NanoStream 6025 and a Hydor Koralia 3. When I unplugged the backup it ran the Hydor ok, but the Tunze made a constant clicking sound and did not start up right. I don't know if it'd do the same with your 6100s, but you might want to try it out before you rely on it.

obsled · #7 04/22/2007, 03:59 PM

VA & Watts won't give you what you need to calc longevity of this sytem, see:

http://www.lifeaftercoffee.com/2007/...-power-blinks/

Any chance Amp Hours is listed on your unit?

It shouldn't be too hard to hook it up and give it a test on a weekend. That is probably your -best- way to figure this out even though crude.

MaGNuS042 · #8 04/22/2007, 04:32 PM

its already hooked up, i just dont have 6 to 10 hours to sit in front of my tank and watch the pumps. Ill look on the box for more specs and let u guys know.

chris wright · #9 04/23/2007, 07:17 AM

MaGNuSO42,

If the backup power supply is for the 6100's only, then you should post in the tunze USA forum. Im sure Rodger Vitko can give you a definate yes or no answer to your querry.

Good Luck mate.

Chris.

rsw686 · #10 04/23/2007, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by aninjaatemyshoe
That's something I wanted to know too. The computer battery backup devices usually have some wattage rating and an expected battery runtime (say for instance 300W for 1.5 hours). Now if one were to run a load of say 50W on that, would you expect to get 9 hours? It would be the same amount of energy expense after all.

Huh they run about 10-15 minutes normally with 1/4 to 1/2 load. According to the APC chart at 50W you'll get 2 hours give or take 15 minutes. This varys slightly from brands, but is about what I stated before.

http://apc.com/products/runtime_for_...m?upsfamily=23

I have UPS's powering my desktop and server rack and they both last long enough to save everything and shut down the systems, granted this happens automatically.

You need a generator if you want to run something for extended times. You can get them tied into the breaker box with a transfer switch that will automatically start the generator and transfer power upon a power outage. The UPS is good here for computer equipment as it will keep it running the few minutes it takes to get the generator online.

rsw686 · #11 04/23/2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by aninjaatemyshoe
On a side note, I have a battery backup that I have never tested to see how long it'll run some equipment. However, I have it plugged to a Tunze NanoStream 6025 and a Hydor Koralia 3. When I unplugged the backup it ran the Hydor ok, but the Tunze made a constant clicking sound and did not start up right. I don't know if it'd do the same with your 6100s, but you might want to try it out before you rely on it.

They made a clicking sound because most consumer UPS output A/C in a square wave form. Only high end UPS's output pure sinewave. Belkin's Dual Form Factor UPS and APC's Smart-UPS are sinewave output. I have both and for the money the Belkin is alot cheaper and works just as well, although the APC software is better, but this doesn't matter for a fish tank.

rsw686 · #12 04/23/2007, 08:35 AM

FYI I wouldn't recommend taking out the supplied UPS battery and hooking up a larger deep cycle battery either, as the UPS charger and inverter are not made to run that long and most times will overheat. If you don't want to go the generator route, you can go with a battery bank of deep cycle batteries and an inverter/charger with built in automatic transfer switch. Heres a link of some offerings from Xantrex. These are used on boats and RVs mostly.

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/2/type.asp

Granted with the above your runtime is limited by the amount of batteries. A generator, assuming you have the fuel supply, is a better option if your power goes down for multiple days. However I think this is more costly to make fool proof and automatic as the generator needs an electric starter and you need an automatic transfer switch. You would periodically need to maintain the generator and have a trickle charger on the battery. You will also have a few minutes of downtime, but if you get a large enough generator you could run your who house. With the inverter your just going to be running a few items, to get a long battery life, but the transfer to battery is seamless.

lecher · #13 04/23/2007, 07:32 PM

You can run your tunzes and a small heater for 3-5 hours with one of these and a couple of deep cycle marine batteries.

http://www.jehmco.com/PRODUCTS_/HARD...up_system.html

BeanAnimal · #14 04/23/2007, 11:48 PM

A few things...

APC is somewhat garbage in the "real" ups world, belkin, cyberpower and other stuff are PURE JUNK.

As mentioned a modified sine wave output (step or square, whatever) is not going to work well for motors (it can actually case damage to the motors and/or the UPS outputs).

Most consumer UPS systems (read affordable) will have a single (or maybe 2) 7Ah batteries in them. They do not do power management well and will give your short runtimes.

I have a a 1500VA TRUE SINE WAVE ups that will run a small load for days. But it has over (30) 9Ah cells attached to it. I contemplated putting on of these online http://www.liebert.com/dynamic/displ...88&cycles=60Hz ... just because it is free (well it needs new batteries, 10 per drawer, 12 drawers... at @ $15 each...). I would get days out of it running a modest pump and heater.

But in the end... you need a genset, as battery replacement costs will kill you.

The main purpose of a "UPS" system is to hold you for 30 seconds and give the genset time to come up to full RPM and then grab the load.

I could buy a whole house standby genset for what the batteries will cost for that Liebert nfinity. Hell to replace all of the batteries for the GXT2 (the 30+ batteries) will cost over $500 (every 3 years or so).

It IS NOT cost effectve

PrangeWay · #15 04/25/2007, 11:16 AM

Also remember if the power kicks out and you're battery backup starts, assuming you're using the photocell with a multicontroller, you'll ramp down to 30% output and a much lower wattage, about 12W each (my 6000's drop to 6W each).

Tunze really should develop their own battery backup, Streams are DC pumps you already hook up the transformer puck to, so a new setup including your ac transformer and battery backup would be sweet.

PW

davidryder · #16 04/26/2007, 01:33 PM

The unit should have those specifications listed somewhere.

plankton · #17 04/30/2007, 07:03 PM

If you use UPS from APS, make sure it is a 'smart UPS' because those use true sine wave AC output. I have one model 1500VA? that drives all the power heads I tried on it very smoothly (Seio, rio, Tunze, etc).

You can do the math your self using the watthours of the batteries and the load you want to drive. You can also use a Kill-o-watt to measure actual watt/hour usage of your load if you want something more accurate than what is listed on the pump.

PS I also setup for fun a 50W solar panel, solar charging controller and a battery to run a single power head. I don't think I'll ever break even on it in my lifetime, but at least in a power failure the little Seio will run for DAYS!

Scott

Slick Fork · #18 05/25/2007, 06:29 PM

I'm looking at acquiring a ups for my tank as well but for somewhat different purposes.

I live out in the country and our power service here is terrible. Constant brownouts and fluctuations. Drives me nuts sometimes. Anyways, I want to get one of these to sort of "smooth out" the power.

I looked at some of the Belkins and they claim a simulated sine wave. Is this the same as a "true" sine wave for our purposes?

I am looking at powering a 100 gallon tank with a 55 gallon sump, 500 watts of MH lights, a tunze nano (6045) a couple of Seio 820's, tunze 9010 skimmer, heaters, fuge light... the whole thing. I don't want to spend a whole bunch on one of these as it will NOT be a power substitute. Just a power "smoother". I hate having the halides reset, and the pumps go clatter clatter clatter every time the power flickers.

Would one of these lower end ones work? Any other suggestions? Thanks

BeanAnimal · #19 05/25/2007, 06:54 PM

No a simulated sine wave more than likely means a fairly rough waveform ( the unit being a belkin makes this even more so).

In any case, it will NOT smooth the power. If the unit does AVR (automatic voltage regulation) then it does so by BUCK and BOOST. This in essence severaly skews the sine wave to maintain output voltage. That is fine for a switch mode power supply but bad news for motors and ballasts.

You can certainly try one, it will help with those instant flickers... IF the flicker drops the voltage below the boost threshold. It will do very strange things during low voltages withint the boost threshold that last more than a second or so.

You would be MUCH better off with an ONLINE style UPS. Look at the Liebert GXT2 series. You will spend $700 maybe.

Bean

Icefire · #20 05/25/2007, 11:50 PM

540w ups have a stand up time of one hour @ 100w.
useless

BeanAnimal · #21 05/26/2007, 08:19 AM

You have to also understand what a UPS is really for...

We size UPS systems to hold a system up during a power outage LONG ENOUGH FOR THE GENSET TO KICK IN.

There are two ratings to consider. The CURRENT that the UPS can handle and the SIZE of the battery string.

SO when you see 500VA 750VA 1000VA etc, you are not just looking at battery size. The larger capacity units usually have larger batteries but that is only to keep up with the current draw.

It gets VERY expensive to add battery strings to ANY UPS system. It is almost always MUCH cheaper to only add enough cells to hold the system over for the genset (usually much less than 30 seconds).

I have a some VERY LARGE ups systems here, 1 with over 28 12.5Ah batteries. It will cost $400 every 3 years to replace those cells. The other UPS holds larger AGM batteries and costs around $800 when battery replacement comes around. I would be silly to put that thing on my aquarium. I can get a natural gas generator and automatic transfer switch for less than $2000.

KyleO · #22 05/26/2007, 12:12 PM

BeanAnimal is right...........on all counts. I manage server rooms for a living and I can tell you that most "UPS" units will not supply a fraction of the uptime or battery time that it claims to.

The true battery backups that live up to their rep are EXPENSIVE!!! If you are going to be using APC, Belkin or the like, under-estimate your downtime by a factor of 6 and then you are probably going to get some real world results.

What is wrong with haing two or three APC UPSs for two or three power heads???

yeldarbj · #23 05/26/2007, 02:47 PM

Can anyone give any specific details on run-time of a powerhead on a UPS? I understand that most basic UPS systems are designed to run a heavier load for a very short period. I want a UPS to run a single powerhead (~8 watts - Seio 620) for as long as possible.

With hurricane season approaching, I need something to help maintain some flow during a storm. I've got a generator for after a storm does its damage, but it's not feasible to run it while the storm is blowing through. We lost power for about 18 hours when Katrina hit almost 200 miles away. I didn't have a tank at the time though.

kimboslice · #24 05/28/2007, 01:27 AM

bean animal do u own a liebert? i am looking for a battery backup and want a good solid one but not too pricey
is liebert the way to go?

BeanAnimal · #25 05/28/2007, 08:47 AM

I own a pile of Lieberts

I like them so much, that I now sell them and have since dropped APC.

The GXT2 series units are rock solid and are true "online" ups systems. The DC bus powers the inverter ALL OF THE TIME. There is NO switchover time. When the mains power dies, the batteries are already connected to the DC bus. During mains power, the DC bus powers the inverter and keeps the batteries charged. This all means that the unit does NOT do voltage regulation, it does not need to, as the input voltage is meaningless. The true sinewave output is nice and clean and stays that way.

You can find them at several online vendors. provantage.com has decent pricing ($425 for the 700VA, $550 for the 1000VA, $725 for hte 1500VA) These units are NOTHING like the APC or other consumer garbage out there. These are the real deal.

However, you may want to just look into getting a GOOD inverter and a few deep cycle batteries if you are trying to get through short power outages. You can put the inverter and batteries OUTSIDE in a suitable "dog house" for safety. Much cheaper than commercial quality UPS. Depending on the relay setup you chose, you may or many not be able to prevent the halides from going out during the switchover.