Wow! New hybrid pygmy angelfish reared at RCT!

Maximus · #1 09/02/2006, 07:50 PM

Frank has reared a cross between a resplendens and a Hawaiian fisheri. Here is the link:
http://www.rcthawaii.com/angel/6.htm#hybrid

Maximus · #2 09/02/2006, 07:51 PM

Video:
http://www.rcthawaii.com/assets/video3.m1v

Project Reef · #3 09/02/2006, 08:14 PM

What can I say other than; Frank has mad skills!

r00onmac · #4 09/02/2006, 08:30 PM

holy cow.. that rocks...

Ironsheikh · #5 09/02/2006, 09:45 PM

$800 for a fish? nice to look at but not for me

zemuron114 · #6 09/02/2006, 09:57 PM

that is very cool!

ACBlinky · #7 09/03/2006, 12:13 AM

I would not turn down a single fish on that page, holy COW those fish are stunning!! I'm absolutely drooling right now, that site is a dwarf angel lover's paradise

Rare Angels · #8 09/03/2006, 10:16 AM

ACBlinky I am with you. I would love to work with Frank on this type of stuff. I would/will buy any of the fish on that page.

Keep up the good work Frank !!

Dave

Steven Pro · #9 09/03/2006, 11:42 AM

I hate artificial hybrids. What are we going to have next, Mickey Mouse Domino Damsels, Balloon Green Chromis, Fantail Ocellaris Clowns?

sirbooks · #10 09/03/2006, 12:30 PM

Agreed. It's obvious that being able to breed Centropyge is a great talent, but why use it to produce unnatural fish? There's already so many beautiful species out there, it's not like there is any sort of a lack of beauty. Manmade variations and hybrids have invaded the freshwater hobby, and they're permeating the marine side as well. I mean, no stripe clownfish? Come on.

Steven Pro · #11 09/03/2006, 06:57 PM

I don't believe the no stripe clownfish are hybrids. I think they were just developed via selective breeding. I personally find them to be ugly. I just am not as opposed to them as to hybrids.

Amphiprion · #12 09/03/2006, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steven Pro
I don't believe the no stripe clownfish are hybrids. I think they were just developed via selective breeding. I personally find them to be ugly. I just am not as opposed to them as to hybrids.

No, not hybrids--and I feel that they are rather repulsive, also. I am not opposed to some hybrids (i.e. naturally occurring ones).

sirbooks · #13 09/03/2006, 09:37 PM

I know, I didn't say they were hybrids. "Manmade variations" is what I called them, though I guess I hid it pretty well.

Though naturally occurring hybrids are, well, natural, they're still pretty rare for the most part. Unfortunately, I can think of one example (Lake Victoria's cichlid population) where humans are inadvertently causing hybrids. It's a sad case.

trueblackpercula · #14 09/04/2006, 08:29 AM

Amphiprion

Quote:

No, not hybrids--and I feel that they are rather repulsive

sirbooks

Quote:

I hate artificial hybrids. What are we going to have next, Mickey Mouse Domino Damsels, Balloon Green Chromis, Fantail Ocellaris Clowns?

Do you have any idea what goes into breeding Centropyge angles?
Do you know what it take's to raise the fry?
Do you know what its like to create something that know one else has done?
Do not bash Frank he has done something that most will never do in there life time and I am sticking up for him and don't even know him.
If you don't have anything nice to say then don't say it at all.
I personally think its a great accomplishment for the hobby.
Michael
Future centropyge breeder.

jmaneyapanda · #15 09/04/2006, 08:48 AM

Michael:

Just because no one has done it before, doesnt mean it should be done! I know thats very Jurassic Park, but it is true! Most naturally occuring hybrids are sterile, and cannot reproduce (like a mule). When this occurs in nature, it will not continue due to this fact. If it does continue, and the offspring are fertile, and the offspring have some tangible advantage, they would become a new species. However, Pacific and Caribbean fish would NEVER interbreed in the wild. I think we can all agree that Frank has serious skills, and is likely better at what he does than anyone else, but artificial selection and pairing in captivity is a hornets nest. They absoluetly make pretty fish, but there will be a fitness tradeoff, guaranteed. Otherwise, nature would've done it already.

As for the clownfish, these are likely evolutionarily unfit animals which would likely never survive in the wild, and have been created (or better phrased re-created) by some degree of inbreeding. Same ball of wax- an unpublicized flaw with come with these animals. The anomolous color patterns in wild fish (like the queen angels from St. Pauls Rock) are due to localized inbreeding populations, and probably suffer from maladies (although no one really knows).

Without getting into a ridiculous argument/discussion, or offending anyone- sometimes creating new species or animals should be left to higher powers than humans.

Im off my soapbox.

cwegescheide · #16 09/04/2006, 09:05 AM

600 + for an angelfish????????????? Geez Louise!!! Makes that 75 dollar flame sound pretty cheap! I do appreciate the fact that some of these angelfish are rare and I think its kindof cool to have something unique in your reef though. It gets a little boring in a way when you see somebody's reef and they all have the same fish.

If I spent that kind of cash for fish I'd be finding a harness for them so when they jump out of the tank they'd bungi right back in!!!

sirbooks · #17 09/04/2006, 10:13 AM

Trueblackpercula, you made a mistake in quoting me. Steven was the one to say:

Quote:

I hate artificial hybrids. What are we going to have next, Mickey Mouse Domino Damsels, Balloon Green Chromis, Fantail Ocellaris Clowns?

I still agree with him, however. No one has bashed this breeder, it's just that some of us feel that he shouldn't be making hybrid angels. I don't see why you think anybody is attacking him. In fact, I made note of the talent he had in producing these fish.

I like Triggers · #18 09/04/2006, 11:40 AM

well it is better for the hobby to have tank bred fish. he is creating nice fish, if you dont like them, dont buy them. it is as simple as that. they are there for the people who want them. this is a good step for salt water to take, these fish tank bred will do better in aquariums. this is better for nature.

jmaneyapanda · #19 09/04/2006, 12:28 PM

triggers- not to be combatative, but i respectively disagree. I think it is a bad step to start creating hybrids. You are absolutely 100% correct about not buying them if you dont like it. Absolutely- without doubt. I highly doubt anyone here will who disagrees with this principle will buy one. Hwoever, this is not an order form for his company, but instead a discussion forum about his hybridization.
While I agree tank bred fish will do better in the aquarium, it will not stop collection from wild areas. For most fish, such as this, the cost is significantly higher than collected specimens. Until this is resolved, collection will continue- and it has nothing to do with technology. Martin Moe was captive raising french angels in the 70's, and how many captive french angels do you think are out there? Because it was too cost prohibitive. This is working for freshwater fish nowadays, captive rasied fish are just as cheap, if not cheaper than wild. Clownfish also seem to following track, too, which is wonderful.
My argument with hybridization is purely ethical. I think there is a very scientific reason these fish have not been bred previously, in wild or nature. To omit this possibility for the benefit of profit is not something I think is proper. So I won't buy this fish. That is all I hope to say.

trueblackpercula · #20 09/04/2006, 06:52 PM

sirbooks
Sorry

dstall · #21 09/04/2006, 08:31 PM

How do you determine if $800 is reasonable price for these fish? Whats the basis? I have seen other rare fish no ware near this price. I'm sure a lot of work/cost went into producing these fish, but have issues with creating thes hybreds..

wayne in norway · #22 09/05/2006, 07:53 AM

Try it yourself. You'll soon see where 800 dollars worth of work went. Raising Centropyge is not for the faint hearted, (or people with 'day jobs'). He has to pay himself a wage over a year period for maybe 500 total fish raised a year, and after considerable expenses are removed.

I'm a big fan of Franks work, but I'm with Steven on this - I do NOT like hybrids. Coming from cichlids does that for you. It's a nonargument for marine keepers at this point as not enough people are breeding fish, but it will be.

jerryz · #23 09/05/2006, 09:38 AM

jmaneyapanda - You mean like dogs (how many breeds), cats, horses, cows and all of those other naturally occuring animals? oh I gbet your argument now. Those are OK because they were selectively bred by our ancestors using techniques available to them at the time and the animals are now completely fixed as usefull or entertaining parts of our lives.

So it enters this part of our "culture." Better give back your cat or dog, stop eating meat (except perhaps goat), and watch the pressures on the fish and cortals increase dramatically as more and more people enter the hobby.

Angel*Fish · #24 09/05/2006, 10:37 AM

A number of Centropyges interbreed naturally in the wild - is that a problem, too?

Quote:

Originally posted by cwegescheide

If I spent that kind of cash for fish I'd be finding a harness for them so when they jump out of the tank they'd bungi right back in!!!

How cute - little fishy harnesses!

Angel*Fish · #25 09/05/2006, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmaneyapanda
Martin Moe was captive raising french angels in the 70's, and how many captive french angels do you think are out there? Because it was too cost prohibitive.

That is going to be changing - there is a lot of work being done on raising pods. Some even government funded. It will be be very lucrative for those who are most successful.

Quote:

I think there is a very scientific reason these fish have not been bred previously, in wild or nature.

As I mentioned above dwarf angels do interbreed in the wild - mainly when there are fewer of the same breed fish to mate with, that's why Frank was able to do it. It wasn't any kind of "test tube" level science.