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  #26  
Old 09/18/2007, 11:07 PM
dendro982 dendro982 is offline
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Quote:
Is that a really long answer to your question?
Oh, yes! In the best possible way!
Now will sit tight and start to study the method.
Thank you!
  #27  
Old 09/19/2007, 12:42 AM
pledosophy pledosophy is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by dendro982
Oh, yes! In the best possible way!
Now will sit tight and start to study the method.
Thank you!
Let me know if you have any questions. I miss several thread but if you PM me the thread I'll be sure to anwser. It has been very fun for me over the last few years.

Despite what is commonly seen on the boards there are many of us naturalists out there.

Good Luck.
  #28  
Old 09/19/2007, 09:20 PM
T Man T Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by capn_hylinur
here's pics of my filtration and tank. What I would like to do is turn my sump into what you have---how would you advise I go about doing that.
I like the cheato tank Capn', it looks like you have pretty much all bases covered as far as filtration. If you consolidated it all into one "sump/ref" as I have, it wouldn't be much of a chore. Just make a simple baffle system in a tank and decide where you want to place the the chaeto...I would recommend the center( where I have my mangroves and mud), unless you are going with the mangroves and mud also- in that case, I would go with four compartments instead of three as I have.
One thing about my sump is the LR rubble, I have tons of it and am making room for more. The other thing that I have found to be an excellent "natural" filter is bleached dead coral, there is about forty pounds in the first section as you can see under the LR rubble. IMO it is the stage before "LR" and the grass roots of "reef builders" and has served me well for many years- you might want to consider some.
  #29  
Old 09/19/2007, 09:42 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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T-Man--what's the advantages of mangroves in mud or a rock and rubble refugium...........or in my case is there an advantage of having both--the external refugium and a section in the sump for mangroves and mud.
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  #30  
Old 09/19/2007, 09:47 PM
mosthated00 mosthated00 is offline
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whats your lighting cycle for your chaeto?
  #31  
Old 09/19/2007, 10:05 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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24/7 with a 25 watt energy saver bulb from Home Depot.

A month ago I had the bulb on for 16 hrs at night in reverse of the halides over the main tank---so as to minimize the nocturnal shift in pH. But since I have had it on 24/7 its tripled its mass in one month
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  #32  
Old 09/19/2007, 11:20 PM
dendro982 dendro982 is offline
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pledosophy:
I'm just starting to collect the information, if you remember any links - post here, please, it will be helpful for many people, who will read this thread over and over later.

I was frustrated an year ago, when after reading and trying, appeared, that the natural filtration and skimmerless tanks are possible only for sparsely fed tanks...
  #33  
Old 09/20/2007, 10:52 AM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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dendro982--that's kind of an oxymoron----if you have a natural filtration system and are adding your own inverts---then you should only have to feeding sparcly
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  #34  
Old 09/20/2007, 11:34 AM
dendro982 dendro982 is offline
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:Sigh:
I wish, but have to ocean, only the tanks, too small for the tasks:
- one, 90g for keeping a large and messy fish, which eats a lot and wastes a lot,
- two, Christmas tree rocks in 10g, and they require a lot of feeding,
- tree, 6g nano, filled to brims by non-photosynthetic corals: chilis and gorgonians.
The feeding cannot be reduced, only cleaning and filtration could be improved.

Tried to use refugiums for all of them, each refugium ended with red cyano, acoel worms and some with dinoflagellates (bubbles in the red cyano), even with a plenty of flow, 25x and more turnover. It was not good for the tanks, had to disconnect refugiums.

The self-sufficient 5g hex, I was talking about, was set as a trial do establish the live sand from the bagged live sand, using the virtue of patience. Ended up almost abandoning it, and dumping there the corals, that had no other place to go.

Here is my miserable practically self sufficient tank (relatively speaking: very rarely changed 1/10 of water, regularly added alkalinity supplement and top-off water, may be once a week or in two-tree weeks - drop of food for mysids, power filter and later pump - for water movement only), half of year old:
Started this way:

Then become:

Later:

The clam is here temporarily, may be for a month, until the problems in the nest tank ended.

Now, with the main mass of chaeto and ochtodes removed:


But I would like to learn, how to manage refugium-like tanks, without red cyano and such, for the sake of all other tanks. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

One pitfall - the sumps/refugiums could be only with the same water level, not below the tank.
  #35  
Old 09/20/2007, 01:23 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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that tanks looks good--if you are after the variety of stuff you have in there---and that is what this thread is about

perhaps you fuges didn't work out because they were not big enough?
the 30 gal tub was 20 dollars---light, substrate, cheato another-50 dollars.
I am actually thinking about running two refugiums---the way mine is now is that the flow rate is reduced to the point to encourage the grow of inverts and protect them, introducing them to the main tank slowly.

Cheato does such a fine job consuming nitrates and phosphates (if you harvest it ) that I was thinking of turning my sump into another refugium where the increased flow would assist the filtration of my system. this is why I became interested in T-man's system

don't give up---I see this as the future and true filtration way to go.

As for controling the cyano and algae growth run two phosban reactors one with carbon and the other with phosban--they do wonders and a reactor is about 35 dollars.
Here's a pic:

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  #36  
Old 09/20/2007, 01:59 PM
audio101 audio101 is offline
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I'm curious about the benefits of a rubble refugium also?
  #37  
Old 09/20/2007, 02:27 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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Here's a good link:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/refugium.htm
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  #38  
Old 09/20/2007, 04:33 PM
sabbath sabbath is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by audio101
will not curious about the benefits of a rubble refugium also?
I would like to know this one as well. I have read posts in the filtration forums. That you need larger live rock to break down nitrates. That rubble will not do it. You need the low oxygen area that is deeper into the rock.
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  #39  
Old 09/20/2007, 04:51 PM
edwar050 edwar050 is offline
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I know exactly where your coming from. I am almost overskimming my 120 with a modified octopus skimmer. I need to start dosing low ammounts of mag and iodine as well as bump up water changes. I also have a couple of mangroves and have been fairly happy with them though there growth rate sucks.
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  #40  
Old 09/20/2007, 10:45 PM
T Man T Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by capn_hylinur
what's the advantages of mangroves in mud or a rock and rubble refugium
I have noticed that the mangroves grow better in a "mineral mud" substrate versus sand or crushed coral etc. after all, mud is the natural source for the nurtients that they require for growth in the wild. As far as advantages, mangroves remove nitrates plain and simple, just because they are slow growers does not mean that they function any different. I used to have exceptional growth with 175 w MH @ an 8 hr photoperiod, but had a problem with two of the plants overshadowing the remaing trees and ultimately starving them of light- since then, I have planted a dozen more and use a plain old flourescent light for illumination which gives me a nice consistent growth rate and no more competition.
Now, the rubble works virtually the same way as the larger rock in the display with the advantage of more surface area. Nitrates have never been an issue with the mangroves and yes, I totally agree that "You need the low oxygen area that is deeper into the rock". That is why I use the mangroves and mud.
One thing that I have not explained is my theory of success with LPS and clams. While I was in the Marine Corps twenty years ago, I spent two years in the Pacific basically around the Marianis island chain and the other side of the equator (south Pacific) in the coral sea to include the great barrier reef. I spent every precious moment of my "liberty" in the water and grew quite interested in the "lagoonal" species specifically LPS and giant clams- I was hooked! I knew then that the only way to have success with keeping anything for extended periods of time,I would have to emulate the natural "biotope" of the lagoon.
This is what I've come up with, a slightly lowered PH and salinity due to the buffering by the surrounding sand bed and the mangroves, well......they keep the nitrates at bay. I can only say from my expirience, anecdotal as it is, it works for me. TinMan
  #41  
Old 09/21/2007, 06:36 AM
sabbath sabbath is offline
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Interesting, That sounds almost like the "for a wet/dry" thought. One could run a wet/dry for the fast removal of Am ,nitrites. Then the mangroves for the nitrates.
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  #42  
Old 09/21/2007, 10:14 AM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sabbath
Interesting, That sounds almost like the "for a wet/dry" thought. One could run a wet/dry for the fast removal of Am ,nitrites. Then the mangroves for the nitrates.
Don, I would run the separate refugium with cheato and increased flow rate for removal of nitrates--far more effecient

That's where the catch22 comes in and why I am thinking of the second refugium with slower flow to protect and enduce the growth of copopods for the tank.
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  #43  
Old 09/21/2007, 10:19 AM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by T Man
I have noticed that the mangroves grow better in a "mineral mud" substrate versus sand or crushed coral etc. after all, mud is the natural source for the nurtients that they require for growth in the wild. As far as advantages, mangroves remove nitrates plain and simple, just because they are slow growers does not mean that they function any different. I used to have exceptional growth with 175 w MH @ an 8 hr photoperiod, but had a problem with two of the plants overshadowing the remaing trees and ultimately starving them of light- since then, I have planted a dozen more and use a plain old flourescent light for illumination which gives me a nice consistent growth rate and no more competition.
Now, the rubble works virtually the same way as the larger rock in the display with the advantage of more surface area. Nitrates have never been an issue with the mangroves and yes, I totally agree that "You need the low oxygen area that is deeper into the rock". That is why I use the mangroves and mud.
One thing that I have not explained is my theory of success with LPS and clams. While I was in the Marine Corps twenty years ago, I spent two years in the Pacific basically around the Marianis island chain and the other side of the equator (south Pacific) in the coral sea to include the great barrier reef. I spent every precious moment of my "liberty" in the water and grew quite interested in the "lagoonal" species specifically LPS and giant clams- I was hooked! I knew then that the only way to have success with keeping anything for extended periods of time,I would have to emulate the natural "biotope" of the lagoon.
This is what I've come up with, a slightly lowered PH and salinity due to the buffering by the surrounding sand bed and the mangroves, well......they keep the nitrates at bay. I can only say from my expirience, anecdotal as it is, it works for me. TinMan
thanks T-man appreciate you hanging in with this thread--we are all learning alot from you

My delima is still regarding flow
If I use my external refug for copopods etc then the flow has to be reduced
If I use a second refug--like the mangos and mineral mud--then can I increase the flow through there to get the denitrifying affects?
In the case of my flow--its coming into the sump pretty intense even though 10 percent is diverted off to the fug....that still leaves about 2000gph going through the sump.
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  #44  
Old 09/21/2007, 10:29 AM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sabbath
I would like to know this one as well. I have read posts in the filtration forums. That you need larger live rock to break down nitrates. That rubble will not do it. You need the low oxygen area that is deeper into the rock.
This is why you usually add rubble and a deep sand bed in a refugium.
I have also deepened the sand bed in the main tank so as to support some of the life I am creating in the sump. I relied on the life rock taking the hit and it seems to have been ok--no spikes

before:



after 35 lbs of argonite

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  #45  
Old 09/22/2007, 10:09 AM
frederickk frederickk is offline
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Nice looking tank
  #46  
Old 09/22/2007, 05:14 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by frederickk
Nice looking tank
thanks---lets have a look at your tank and set up----must be fantastic--you listed a lot of fire power esp 3 times 250 halides.
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  #47  
Old 10/03/2007, 04:14 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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I have managed to increase the sand bed from 1/2 inch to four inches in the main tank.
Do you think it would be wise to create another refug--with mineral mud and mangos etc to act as the primary filtration from the main tank-- that way I could keep the flow rate to the second refugium at a minimun like right now to produce the variety of inverts that I want. My system is pictured up a couple of posts.
or should I reverse the functions?
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  #48  
Old 12/03/2007, 11:22 AM
WarrenAmy&Maddy WarrenAmy&Maddy is offline
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hey Capn
what have you done since w/ your filtration???

have you added the mud/mangroves ?

your tank looks great!... and after seeing your fuge (once or twice ) it was nice to finally get to see your display!

regards

  #49  
Old 12/03/2007, 11:55 AM
WarrenAmy&Maddy WarrenAmy&Maddy is offline
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speaking of au natural
does anyone know about setting up a system el natural w/ multiple tanks attached and no skimmer or pumps - heard this mentioned in one of calfos books - may have been him setting it up or had it already had it set up -

anyone know how would this/could this be done ?



regards
  #50  
Old 12/03/2007, 12:33 PM
Frick-n-Frags Frick-n-Frags is offline
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I used to meditate on an archimedes screw (NO that's not a new mixed drink ) to fill a surge bucket in a way to not run everything through an impeller, then cascade the multiple tanks, so each overflows the next
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