Lab analysis of instant ocean and other salt mixes - Page 4

Boomer · #76 09/30/2007, 04:08 PM

I agree but who is going to be the second service to verify them ? And it is to late now they already know. Second, they would have not reason to treat it with kid gloves. It would not benefit them or their service in the near future or long run. Me, I would only consider ENC, a real lab for seawater analysis but we can't afford them by a long shot. NatureReef maybe using test kits and can we allow that as a second service. And we have had no discussion on doing two services and a second round.

. I didn't want any type of outside influence to take place, only a "normal" test just as if we had sent a sample of our water including shipping time and all.

But you are missing the inside influence or error one of "us " may do, now this is out. Two many hands in the pot is not good science. I can only imagine, for example, how may would fell here if it was me sending in a Marine Environment sample to this lab.

I think all here got over excited and raced into this issue to quickly. I brought it up way back we need to discus things before we do anything.

Boomer · #77 09/30/2007, 04:22 PM

I do not know Mark if that was directed at me or not. I have no issue if "we" let them do it their way. I was asked to give some kind of prorocal for what to look for an how to go about it.

SDguy · #78 09/30/2007, 04:24 PM

Wow, all this conspiracy theory has really sucked the enjoyment out of this situation

.

Boomer · #79 09/30/2007, 04:28 PM

You would be surprised Peter how that has or can come into play but I agree. It is nothing new in this industry

DrBegalke · #80 09/30/2007, 05:13 PM

OK, there are some good ideas above, but I am going to try and make this as simple as possible for AWT as they are being very generous in agreeing to help with this project.

Besides that, I think the protocol should reflect everyday practices used by us.

1) All salt is to come from off the shelf bags/buckets. No direct from manufacture samples. No zip lock bags sent in by us... No input from salt companies. As far as West Coast samples, etc., they are willing to purchase the necessary salt. KUDOS to them!

2) All saltwater is to be mixed to 35 ppt.

3) Volume of saltwater made will be up to AWT. I think a volume of a few gallons +/- will be most practical.

4) Will be mixed at room temperature. No need to adjust temperature, unless someone can tell me exactly why it needs to be 78 instead of 75/room temp and can donate 15 heaters/temp controllers to the project.

4) Water samples are to be circulated for 24 hours, then retested to verify 35 ppt.

5) If possible, pH is to be measured 1 hr after mixing and at 24 hours. (I am not sure what practical information testing at 12 hours would yield).

6) Again, if possible, bromide could be added to the assays listed above.

Mark426 · #81 09/30/2007, 05:19 PM

Since its seems that they are offering the same simple and basic 14 point test we would get if we sent our water in for testing. The protocol would be.... get the top 6 or so salts, mix it with the RO/DI water they have in the lab to the same salinity. Test it...that’s it. This is not a scientific study or research paper. It’s just a SIMPLE "apple to apple" comparison. That is what is being offered...enjoy this gracious offer and then make of it what you will. Let’s not screw it up. If some company uses it to their advantage, who really cares.

DrBegalke · #82 09/30/2007, 05:25 PM

Ya, I agree Mark. And that "simple" test will be VERY valuable to all of us!

My only real question was how long after mixing it does it does it need to be tested?

I generally only mix fresh saltwater for an 1 hour or 2 before using it... never had a problem doing it that way... but it seems a lot of people let it mix for 24 hours...

jdieck · #83 09/30/2007, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cayars
Contacting them like we did here is something I really wanted to avoid altogether. I didn't want any type of outside influence to take place, only a "normal" test just as if we had sent a sample of our water including shipping time and all.

With no disrespect to the company doing the testing, I'm sure they will be treating the tests with kid gloves. This partially raises the question, if the testing is going to be done exactly like a sample we sent in from our tanks or not? We'll never know with the test done by them as they are fully aware of what they are testing.

We also now can't check the reliability of their testing procedures like I intended to do with known samples being sent in and with some if not all samples being sent to another facility for results. I thought it important to use 2 different services as a way of checking both companies against each other. How can we double check their results if we never have access to the samples we want them to test?

Although being "FREE" is good, it does very much taint much of my original intention behind much of the test. It's no longer a BLIND TEST with backup outside testing done for verification, but becomes a vehicle in the form of advertising for them.

Carlo

Carlo:

Let them test, forget about double checks, involving other companies, blind tests or complicating this matter. That's it. Hands off please we just want test of those salts same way they will test anyone elses.

chris wright · #84 09/30/2007, 05:43 PM

I mix mine up as soon as I have done a water change, so mine is made and mixed for a week. I guess alot of people do it different, but I think the consensus would be for 24hrs.

I believe ro/di water should be used, as this is what most people use, so the keeping it simple approach makes sense. I agree with what parameters that have been listed above to be tested, and hope that as many salts can be compared as possible to give the most information as possible. I often wonder whether or not some of the more expensive salts are really as good as people believe. I've changed brands of salt a few months ago, which is saving me a lot of money, and I'm finding the change of brands to be the best move i've made. Both salts are brand name salts.

Great thread Dr, and looking forward to seeing the results

Cheers

Chris

DrBegalke · #85 09/30/2007, 05:45 PM

AWT will be using Hach lab grade distilled water.

That should be more then sufficient.

Chris: thanks! I am looking forward to the results myself!

DrBegalke · #86 09/30/2007, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cayars
Contacting them like we did here is something I really wanted to avoid altogether. I didn't want any type of outside influence to take place, only a "normal" test just as if we had sent a sample of our water including shipping time and all.

With no disrespect to the company doing the testing, I'm sure they will be treating the tests with kid gloves. This partially raises the question, if the testing is going to be done exactly like a sample we sent in from our tanks or not? We'll never know with the test done by them as they are fully aware of what they are testing.

We also now can't check the reliability of their testing procedures like I intended to do with known samples being sent in and with some if not all samples being sent to another facility for results. I thought it important to use 2 different services as a way of checking both companies against each other. How can we double check their results if we never have access to the samples we want them to test?

Although being "FREE" is good, it does very much taint much of my original intention behind much of the test. It's no longer a BLIND TEST with backup outside testing done for verification, but becomes a vehicle in the form of advertising for them.

Carlo

And there is no reason that we can't still do that. We can certainly send in blinded samples to them for testing. We will have even more information with them doing the testing at baseline, more information can only help our cause, not hurt it.

I originally contacted them so we could have a reference set of data, I am still planning on ocassionally sending a sample of my freshly mixed saltwater to them for independent testing. I agree there might be some bias, but there is also more control with having them conduct the study.

The problem with sending in random blind samples is that there wouldn't be as much inter-test reliability. Some samples might be tested one day, some of the others another day, some might get lost in the mail for a day or two extra, etc. If we did send them 15 samples all together, that would probably alert them that something "strange" was going on. Beyond that, we would have to mark each sample in some way, say A/B/C/D, etc., and that certainly would raise some flags and they would be "extra careful" with the testing...

Plus, there is still bias with us sending in samples. For instance, I would be biased toward 50/50 IO/Oceanic as that is what I use... and would unconsciously (or even consciously) be especially sure to mix that sample "just right."

Anyways, I appreciate your concerns Carlo. I tried to send you a PM but your box is full.

saltydude · #87 09/30/2007, 06:18 PM

Do I sign over ny house to? I am not giving any money to a stranger for any reason. My spidey senses are tingling on this one.

DrBegalke · #88 09/30/2007, 06:34 PM

saltydude:

the original idea was for Carlo to collect funds in order for us to test 15+ samples of water independently... which still may occur...

but now aquariumwatertesting.com has graciously offered to help us out by paying for all the salt and testing, as well as conducting the analysis!

Mark426 · #89 09/30/2007, 07:02 PM

Alright...Dr.
Please...lets not request dozens of obscure salts that no one really uses. Dont abuse the offer. No more than the most common (like 8) brands and then just let THEM do their thing. If it gets too huge and complicated it will never happen. If it were my company and I read this thread I would already be looking to back out.

DrBegalke · #90 09/30/2007, 07:14 PM

Mark: I agree, things can get pretty spirited on here. Some of it might be my fault as I openly solicited people's opinions, and you know what they say about opinions

This was the original list of salts:

*1. Instant Ocean
*2. Reef Crystals
*3. Marine Enterprises Crystal Sea Marinemix
*4. Marine Enterprises Crystal Sea Bioassay Laboratory Formula
*5. Oceanic
6. Red Sea Coral Pro
7. Tropic Marin Sea Salt
8. Tropic Marin PRO-REEF
*9. SeaChem Marine Salt
*10. SeaChem Reef Salt
11. Kent Sea Salt
12. Marine Environment dual phase formula
13. Coralife Scientific Grade Marine Salt
14. OceanPure PRO

The ones I put * next to I think are fairly high volume. The others I personally don't know much about, but apparently quite a few people use them.

I would like to see a 50/50 Instant Ocean/Oceanix mix tested at some point, but I may just send that in on my own.

Mark426 · #91 09/30/2007, 07:24 PM

Your so right Dr. Thank you. Since everyone has one....may I add that over on nano-reef.com ( where I am most active) both Tropic Marin salts are THE "go to" salts. Please request those...but...its your show. Thanks again

MJAnderson · #92 09/30/2007, 07:27 PM

Just ran into this. I'm in but am not sure who's in charge now.

Also, the Borneman study mentioned earlier had Red Sea Coral Pro as the 'winner' in the preliminary results. I think that should be added since when his study does come out I think there will be a ton of interest in that salt.

cd77 · #93 09/30/2007, 07:34 PM

Conspiracy theories aside, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that it's not in AWT's best interests to deliberately favor one salt/company over another regardless of reason. Considering the market they appear to be catering to, it would be permanently detrimental to their reputation, and tantamount to business suicide.

The only thing I'd like to reiterate is a need for a control by testing natural sea water.

cd77 · #94 09/30/2007, 07:36 PM

Post a poll, doctor -- lets find out what salt everyone is using right now.

DrBegalke · #95 09/30/2007, 08:05 PM

Mark426: Sure, post it to nano-reef, i am on there too.

cd77: can i post a poll right here?

They are going to test all 14 of the salts above, plus Catalina water...

1. Instant Ocean
2. Reef Crystals
3. Marine Enterprises Crystal Sea Marinemix
4. Marine Enterprises Crystal Sea Bioassay Laboratory Formula
5. Oceanic
6. Red Sea Coral Pro
7. Tropic Marin Sea Salt
8. Tropic Marin PRO-REEF
9. SeaChem Marine Salt
10. SeaChem Reef Salt
11. Kent Sea Salt
12. Marine Environment dual phase formula
13. Coralife Scientific Grade Marine Salt
14. OceanPure PRO
15. Catalina NSW
16. 50/50 Instant Ocean/Oceanic
17. Another source of NSW?

Is there anyone of those that should be eliminated?

DrBegalke · #96 09/30/2007, 08:16 PM

Link to a poll regarding which salt you use.

cd77 · #97 09/30/2007, 08:16 PM

Edit: Jumped the gun -- I answered your poll. Thank you

cayars · #98 09/30/2007, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DrBegalke
And there is no reason that we can't still do that. We can certainly send in blinded samples to them for testing. We will have even more information with them doing the testing at baseline, more information can only help our cause, not hurt it.

I originally contacted them so we could have a reference set of data, I am still planning on occasionally sending a sample of my freshly mixed saltwater to them for independent testing. I agree there might be some bias, but there is also more control with having them conduct the study.

The problem with sending in random blind samples is that there wouldn't be as much inter-test reliability. Some samples might be tested one day, some of the others another day, some might get lost in the mail for a day or two extra, etc. If we did send them 15 samples all together, that would probably alert them that something "strange" was going on. Beyond that, we would have to mark each sample in some way, say A/B/C/D, etc., and that certainly would raise some flags and they would be "extra careful" with the testing...

Plus, there is still bias with us sending in samples. For instance, I would be biased toward 50/50 IO/Oceanic as that is what I use... and would unconsciously (or even consciously) be especially sure to mix that sample "just right."

Anyways, I appreciate your concerns Carlo. I tried to send you a PM but your box is full.

I understand what you're saying and for the standpoint of just getting basic specs on the salts I guess it's fine.

I was probably more bothered by the fact that you kind of jumped in and took over what I've been working on for a while even though I just posted it here a few days ago.

Besides just the salt test itself was to be some checks on other parameters which haven't looked correct from AWT. I'm concerned they aren't doing true SW test on some things and I wanted to flush this out.

For the basic stuff most people care about like Calcium, Alkalinity, Phosphates, Magnesium the results they give should be good enough so I'll follow up their salt test with an independent set of tests.

Carlo

PS I'll empty out the PM box.

Macimage · #99 09/30/2007, 09:16 PM

One of our lfs owner's told me they stopped using the Catalina sea water as they've had huge problems with it lately. It appears that they are pulling it out of polluted Long Beach harbor and the purification process is not working that well. Once they discontinued using the Catalina water, their problems were eliminated.

I also read several posts on here from rc's that purchased it and had problems.

Perhaps another source of nsw might be considered.

Joyce

DrBegalke · #**100** 09/30/2007, 09:31 PM

macimage: wow, that's interesting. I guess I stopped using it just in time.