What Are The Local Reef Stores Missing

[cschweitzer]

Of course, I completely agree, everyone should QT their new arrivals. Every single person who buys saltwater should do this. Fact is, this is a great process, but that does not mean you should not expect a healthy animal when you buy from a store. I think it all works from the top down.

A store needs to find good, reputable wholesalers that are willing to send only healthy animals that are caught using non-abrasive techniques(no cyanide, etc.). Obviously, there are some cracks and a sick fish here and there will fall through them. This is the time when they are stressed and coming into a store. This is the time when they need the most care and best health. If there are sick or dying fish polluting their water, there is no chance for this to happen.

After this, it is the buyers discretion whether to buy the animal or not. I think this has a lot to do with the process. After purchase, it is the buyer's discretion to QT the animal or not.

Again, I am not putting the full burden on the stores, but honestly, it is everyone's responsibility to keep the fish happy and in turn the buyer happy. I think a scaled-down version of MAC certification(too harsh of restrictions and cost to be reasonable as an optional benefit in trade) and/or some type of animal rights laws could significantly help our hobby. After all, I would consider turning a blind eye to a sick fish almost an act of abuse; we now have the technologies to significantly reduce illnesses that we didn't have 10 years ago. Sale of sick or dying animals in any sense is just not good sense.

Matt, if you find this inappropriate, I am willing to let a mod remove any part of this statement you would like gone, but I felt it needed to be said.

[davy182]

So this doesn't change my mind about any stores. Really the only thing I look for is that corals aren't rtn'g and healthy polyp extension. Otherwise I still do my rounds to all the fish stores.

[cschweitzer]

#2 on our list of main goals at ORCA is:
Promote better standards for LFS

It is part of our goal and I think a very important part.

[davy182]

Thats great I like that one, and I help those fish out that want help, but who has dissiminated any readings from any books( I forgot what number that is). Or better yet done anything other than the regular meetings to futher help aquarists needs. I just started doing the workshops because I like to hang around with other people and talk about the hobby, and they aren't going to get more out of it by attending. I love it so much I nearly front 300 dollars for each work shop out of my pocket. So after this post I have spoke my mind entirely. Thanks all for listening.

[davy182]

Sorry need to fix a mispell insted of they aren't going to get more out of attending I meant the are going to get more out of it by attending.

[Pacific Reefs]

Originally posted by cschweitzer

A store needs to find good, reputable wholesalers that are willing to send only healthy animals that are caught using non-abrasive techniques(no cyanide, etc.). Obviously, there are some cracks and a sick fish here and there will fall through them. This is the time when they are stressed and coming into a store. This is the time when they need the most care and best health. If there are sick or dying fish polluting their water, there is no chance for this to happen.

Craig this is so much easier said than done. Just the pure stress of transport leaves some fish in distress and near death before they even get a chance to enter the LFS tanks. Suppliers are in the business to make money. So a lot of times fish that shouldn't be shipped do get sent out. If you want to promote better standards at LFS sometimes you need to start in California with the Suppliers. Just volunteer at an LFS when the shipment comes in....a LARGE shipment. Then you will see how some things are out of your control.

I think the best thing to come out of this thread is that it doesn't matter if you get your fish or corals from fellow reefers, the LFS or a frag auction. Just set up your own QT tank and know what to look for and how to treat it.

[cowboyswife]

Originally posted by Pacific Reefs
Craig this is so much easier said than done. Just the pure stress of transport leaves some fish in distress and near death before they even get a chance to enter the LFS tanks. Suppliers are in the business to make money. So a lot of times fish that shouldn't be shipped do get sent out. If you want to promote better standards at LFS sometimes you need to start in California with the Suppliers. Just volunteer at an LFS when the shipment comes in....a LARGE shipment. Then you will see how some things are out of your control.

I think the best thing to come out of this thread is that it doesn't matter if you get your fish or corals from fellow reefers, the LFS or a frag auction. Just set up your own QT tank and know what to look for and how to treat it.

Well said!

[nauti1us]

"Thats great I like that one, and I help those fish out that want help, but who has dissiminated any readings from any books( I forgot what number that is). Or better yet done anything other than the regular meetings to futher help aquarists needs."

I may have misinterpreted this post, if not I'll respond; When I initiated the monthly club raffle, I intended to include at least one book at each meeting. Many if not most of the newer members have never even picked up a book as a reference. The internet has taken over as a resource for the most part it seems.

Many of our presentations at our meetings are taken from reading materials or researched materials. Lastly, SRC was totally focused on bringing Authors and noted Speakers to the hobbyist to further educate the hobbyist. That would be objective #1

Workshops have been attempted during meetings in the past that I've witnessed. Due to the huge number of people in attendance, they can be difficult to manage so that everyone can see or take part. However, at the last ORCA meeting David's presentation was the best workshop/presentation I've seen yet and the feedback from members was the same. And since then it spurred more workshops that are going very successfully.

If there are others that have ideas for workshops they would like to host and they would like ORCA to endorse or support, please contact anyone on the BOD and we'll do our best to make that happen. I think it's a great idea.

I digress... this thread went 90 degrees off topic...

Quarantining corals and fish at home ultimately is the answer. I know it is so much easier to place the burden on the LFS so you don't have to go to the trouble of setting up yet another tank... But, stick around and spend a few more years in this hobby and you'll see that some things simply don't change. After 17 years in this hobby... the wholesalers still look exactly the same. The fish shipments arriving at LFS's still look the same. The routines remain unchanged. There's only so much a LFS can do and QT'ing Fish and corals prior to putting in display tanks is simply unrealistic. And dips are marginally prophylactic. The responsibility is ours to ensure our tanks are taken care of. At times this can be a complicated hobby that requires real patience, determination and sacrifice.

sorry for the rant... only one cup of coffee so far...

[jay24k]

The problem is this group is a minority. People would rather pay 15 bucks less for a fish that isn't QT and take the risk. By forcing LFS to QT, the costs would rise significantly. Imagine getting 60 fish in and QT each one for 2 weeks. Where are most LFS going to do this? I can understand a sick fish and moving that but you have to realize it is a business.

I visit several stores when I go up there. The only thing I've seen is some stores have high prices on fish and some places have expensive corals. I just go to get the rare stuff now so I don't sweat it. If most of us reefers would sell our corals at a reduced price, we are able to save money and then save up for the rarer stuff. That's why I always sell good sized frags for cheap

[cschweitzer]

Originally posted by jay24k
The problem is this group is a minority. People would rather pay 15 bucks less for a fish that isn't QT and take the risk. By forcing LFS to QT, the costs would rise significantly. Imagine getting 60 fish in and QT each one for 2 weeks. Where are most LFS going to do this? I can understand a sick fish and moving that but you have to realize it is a business.

I visit several stores when I go up there. The only thing I've seen is some stores have high prices on fish and some places have expensive corals. I just go to get the rare stuff now so I don't sweat it. If most of us reefers would sell our corals at a reduced price, we are able to save money and then save up for the rarer stuff. That's why I always sell good sized frags for cheap

I think people are misunderstanding what I meant and misrepresenting what I said.

Let me be clear, I don't think and LFS needs to QT every fish for two weeks before putting them on display...the hundreds of tanks needed for that would not be economically viable.

I do, however, believe that if a fish is sick, it is a stores responsibility to QT it and it is their responsibility to keep the other healthy fish in just that condition: healthy.

I walked into a couple stores in the last few weeks and saw tanks with fish that had eyes bigger than their head. They were in separate tanks and in the tanks with them were healthy and beautiful fish(expensive ones, at that). It may have come in that way, but you as a store need to bring that to the wholesalers attention and let them know that is unacceptable. I've had over 10 fish shipped to me from different retailers and never once did I see something so criminally wrong on a fish. That is really not that hard and not too much to ask for them to call up the wholesalers and tell them that popeye, HLLE, etc is unacceptable. The only way to break the chain of exactly what Matt described is to be proactive, not complacent. Once in a while, ich may break...it happens. But don't leave that fish in a tank with healthy ones.

Again, do not QT every fish, just unhealthy fish. Really not that expensive and really not that difficult. Takes up very little room and would not, as stated before, add $15 to the fish cost(unless the store was purposefully trying to rip you off). It may add $1 to a healthy fish and $5 to one that had to be qt'ed. To think every fish is going to skyrocket in price, just look at stores in the area that already put this into paractice: Marcye at SITC and John at FAOIS. Two of the top stores in Florida already practice this policy and they are not any more expensive(for the quality) than any other store in the area.

[JUICEY]

not to get off the LFS animal health....but.....thinking on cool things the LFS can do....

How does an ORCA appreciation day at each store sound? Maybe a Bar-b-que and some drinks......and an extra discount for that particular day?

We are a few hundred strong now. It would be a great way to get us down to their stores, and give us a little bit better discount now and again. I know 2 fish stores that are interested.....wouldn't it be cool if we could get all our sponsors on board......we could potentially do an orlando fish store tour over the course of the year.

After all....each store has strong points, and I think it would be fun shopping as a group.

oh....and everyone can look for bugs and decide whether the coral or fish is worth quarantining and either buy it or tell the owner how naughty he or she is.

By the way.....didn't we have a presentation about pests and how to be rid of them? Isn't said presentation posted on the ORCA site?

I feel like the LFS should be quarantining everything, if not for our good, for theirs......but just because a store has bugs, doesn't mean I won't buy from them.......I'll be less inclined to buy, but the fact is.....if you have what I want for the right price, I'll buy it. I guarantee that you won't find bugs in my show tanks.

Really it all boils down to their individual business practices. I keep that in mind when shopping. I'll buy a dog without shots if I want it....I have a Vet. And the city does provide me with RO water....I just had to get an extra filter.

~D

~D

[nauti1us]

Originally posted by JUICEY

How does an ORCA appreciation day at each store sound? Maybe a Bar-b-que and some drinks......and an extra discount for that particular day?

Sounds like an interesting idea. I have been approached by a few stores that want to host future club meetings but we are already booked out until March of next year.

This would be a good way to get ORCA in the doors of LFS Sponsor stores not yet visited.

May be the Activities Director might want to run this one and take a look at what it would take to solict LFS Sponsor support.

Good ideas jusy keep roll'n in...

[Reefworkschris]

I'm glad this thread came up because I am always looking for feedback on my store and i'm sure that the other store owners feel the same way. If there is something you want to see more of just let us know. If you have any great ideas for all of the stores feel free to post it up here and we will see what we can do to make it happen. If you have feedback of any stores in particular go there and tell them about it, we all would like to hear it, but you definitly shouldn't post up negatives on reef central.
As far as livestock, trying to QT everything that comes in the door would require all of the stores to have twice the holding capacity that we have now. That would raise prices significantly because we would all need bigger stores, purchase a lot more systems, higher power bills, etc. All stores deal with fish and corals as needed. As far as I know every store has a hospital tank set up and QT's fish as needed and medicates the tank according to what diseases/parasites are in the tank at the time. We also dip/QT corals as needed but it just isn't practical to QT everything that comes in the door. Check with dave for the QT tanks, these are really cool little tanks and serve there purpose well. I do agree the you should QT anything that goes into your tank no matter where it comes from. I have fought off every parasite possible in the past and QT'ing eliminates all of that in your display tank.
Anyways thanks for the comment so far and keep them coming.
Chris

[JUICEY]

Thanks Matt!

I don't think it's unreasonable to see 3 or 4 different club activities going on every month. Just look at how much better the club is now than is has been. Granted, the attendance might not be as large as our regular meetings.....But I like you guys....

I'd like to go do a DIY workshop every month or two....I'd show up at a ORCA appreciation day on a sunday afternoon...and I'll surely be there on this next trip and will start asking about the next one as soon as we get back. Down the road maybe we'll have giant frag events all by themselves, and some more "sidewalk sales"

Here's the Key......Members: Be Vocal....Let the Board and officers know what you'd like to do. Be helpful.....if you come across a cool oppertunity, find out what it would take to make it happen. Be Active: Help the club when and where you can. Just because you aren't the official activities director doesn't mean you can't help out.

This club was built and is maintained by volunteers. The more people that volunteer their help....the bigger and better our club will be. It takes more than just one guy to make things happen. It's way too much work for one person....or for the entire BOD for that matter. If you have an idea, or think and want to help out....even just a little....PLEASE do

I don't think I've ever seen a situation where credit wasn't given where credit was due.

Remember elections are coming up.....This club is what WE make of it. PLEASE come out to the next meeting and put your name on the list....and after the elections are over......the new crew will still welcome fresh ideas and a bit of help here and there.

[JUICEY]

by the way....reefworks......I'd like to see a tank I can buy from with metal halides over it. I like your prices, but stony corals are kind of pot luck for me....I have to "imagine" what your SPS will turn into when I put them under my halides.

Ocean blue/aquaria studio......I think your colonies are overpriced, but your tanks are looking MUCH better this year than last. I tend to shop at Ocean blue for fish and dry goods that I need quickly because it's a couple blocks from my office. You guys have a great selection of LPS....I'd like to see some more exotic SPS.

Fish bowl...Ocean direct...aquarium......what is your stores name now? I get confused.....you have slammin prices on live rock....but I'd like to see more corals.

SITC....your livestock is in prestine condition every time I'm there...some stuff is a bit pricey, but the quality is always on point. I also really appreciate how active you are in our club...thanks!

WWC...can you move your store closer to me? if not...I'd like to see more dry goods....I'd have more reason to stop by more frequently. You definitely have some nice corals for good prices.

Fishy business....is that still the same name? You have a great selection of fish, and the prices are pretty good....but the last time I was in there, it was hard to get a salespersons attention(they were busy though) and the fish tanks looked like they needed a little cleaning. I haven't stopped in for a while. You were probably having a super busy day when I was there last.

who am I missing? those are the stores I seem to come across most often. I do have to admit...I get most of my stuff via internet, and I don't get to LFS as often as I'd like.

All of these stores have great customer service! I like to be treated like a friend when I spend my money, and ALL of these places are very nice and take the time to say hello and ask how my tanks are doing. Some even offer a cold soda, and a bag of chips. If I had time, I'd stop by all these places every week just to say hello and chat for a bit if nothing else.

Seven seas....I'm coming to check you guys out this weekend

and Tommy.....I still haven't checked your store out yet, but i'll make a point to check you out this weekend also.

[cschweitzer]

Originally posted by JUICEY
Thanks Matt!

I don't think it's unreasonable to see 3 or 4 different club activities going on every month. Just look at how much better the club is now than is has been. Granted, the attendance might not be as large as our regular meetings.....But I like you guys....

I'd like to go do a DIY workshop every month or two....I'd show up at a ORCA appreciation day on a sunday afternoon...and I'll surely be there on this next trip and will start asking about the next one as soon as we get back. Down the road maybe we'll have giant frag events all by themselves, and some more "sidewalk sales"

Here's the Key......Members: Be Vocal....Let the Board and officers know what you'd like to do. Be helpful.....if you come across a cool oppertunity, find out what it would take to make it happen. Be Active: Help the club when and where you can. Just because you aren't the official activities director doesn't mean you can't help out.

This club was built and is maintained by volunteers. The more people that volunteer their help....the bigger and better our club will be. It takes more than just one guy to make things happen. It's way too much work for one person....or for the entire BOD for that matter. If you have an idea, or think and want to help out....even just a little....PLEASE do

I don't think I've ever seen a situation where credit wasn't given where credit was due.

Remember elections are coming up.....This club is what WE make of it. PLEASE come out to the next meeting and put your name on the list....and after the elections are over......the new crew will still welcome fresh ideas and a bit of help here and there.

Absolutely extremely well said. This kind of participation is really what I had hoped for last year when I was co-President. It is not an easy job being on the board and it is completely voluntary without any benefit to onesself. I hope everyone really appreciates the board members, the people who let 80+ people file into their homes and on top of that they make sure we are well fed, and the people who help put events together(using examples of the swap meet, the new QT workshops, and of course everyone involved with SRC). It seems like nothing would get done without active participation from the board, but moreover from our members.

[JUICEY]

Thanks brother! so what can I nominate you for? I'd be glad to put my name in the hat for just about any position. (I don't know much about the website stuff)

I think if we can get a group of driven people that can lean on each other on the board.....and talk members into helping out....we can take the club to the next level with ease...

[cschweitzer]

I could help with mentoring...I mean, heck, I'm always online and around anyways. I don't think I'd be a great activities director(and Chrisstie does a wonderful job with it). I think our President now(should he choose to accept a nomination) has done exceptional work so far and I will vote for him again. Matt, keep up the good work.

[JUICEY]

I think he's feeling a little spent after this year.....maybe we can talk him into a less demanding role on the board. Would you take vice matt? maybe public affairs? activities? that's where your heart is right? activities?

[cschweitzer]

Sorry to get back on the fish handling side of the topic again, I think this is an important article written by the Administrator of rareclownfish.com



http://rareclownfish.com/modules.php...e&threadid=152

[chrisstie]

I have to put in my $0.02 here

First since this is an active ORCA board I want to address a quick ORCA topic about the idea of putting together a "shopping day" - I would love to try to organize something like this and think it'd be a nice thing to do maybe early November or December with some nice weather (and with enough time to coordinate).

When I was younger we would do a "Progressive Dinner" where we would carpool\caravan ourselves from house to house- each host would have 1 course to serve. It would go like, before dinner drinks, salad house, appetizer house, main meal house(s), after dinner drinks and finally dessert.

If possible I would love to mix this up with the holiday cheer around those months and see if I could convince some of the stores (with help and super shopping skills) to perhaps each host a part of a meal and we could spend the day going door-to-door enjoying a bit of food and some shopping. I'll get with the board on something like that - I know our biggest thing coming up now is the Dinner Cruise so go check out Matt's post about it!

I really don't want to comment on what stores should have, as I respect each store and its owners\operators for their choices and business decisions.

What I would like to offer are a few comments from my experience working at an LFS:

I cannot stress enough how important it is to QT! To have a healthy tank even if you trust a store, it is a very very good idea and the number one thing you can do to be a responsible reef keeper! You can only help yourself by doing this.

That said, whenever you walk into any LFS, don't be disheartened by what you don't see. While the impulse buy and window browsing can take over one's budget in this hobby, you can always ask if a store can order something special for you!

A little bit of patience can go a long way in this hobby and that is so true on this topic as well.

Many of our local stores are reef stores and try to cater to that genre. When someone earlier mentioned they'd like to see more predator fish or eels or more fish in general you have to consider a few things.

Many predator fish and eels are very difficult to get to eat. They also aren't always sought after as much as say generic goby #1 or cute blenny #5. They typically have more specialized tanks and the stores that don't carry them probably only order them when needed. Even then the trick is to get them to eat prepared foods and to be in overall good shape. Shipping IS very stressful so waiting for a fish to settle in is never a bad thing. Never be afraid to ask a store to put a hold on a fish either. Most of our stores here that I know of are all very kind and wont mind at all, depending on the livestock may ask for a deposit. No biggie, they get a little money and you get a little insurance knowing your fish is being looked after to be healthy and ready to go home soon.

The other thing is if you go to a store on a weekend, depending on when they get shipments they may have had tons of fish but you just happened to show up on a day when they were sold out of a lot of stuff. Again, don't be afraid to special order or ask to see books or get information on the fish you are looking for. If you prefer a certain store to another for livestock for any reason, it may be worth the wait to get it shipped to your preference.

You could also buy online but waiting a week or two to me sure beats a minimum of around $35 in shipping.

Also as far as having a lot of fish there are stores I've been to I would consider overstocked. Doing this makes your store look great and in small holding tanks many fish get along that wouldn't otherwise in your tank.

If you see 5 tangs altogether in a tank it may look pretty but they may have different behaviors when you take and put them in your super big tank. It all really depends on the fish. My hat goes off to any store that stocks responsibly. Having a just a few less fish really goes in favor for healthier stock and less stress on a fish.

I think this thread has been wonderful and civil and respectful to the LFS and if anything has stuck to simply constructive criticism. That's also the hobbyists job- to provide feedback and hopefully suggestions on where improvement can be. Complaining is easy, doing something beyond it to make something better is the hard part

[chrisstie]

You know I just had another thought I wanted to add here.

I think ORCA is doing an *excellent* job to help its members out... but one of the things our LFS need MOST is your business!

It is truly awesome to be able to trade with each other and get frags for a greatly discounted price at the frag auction, but don't forget about the stores we support.

It has really been a while since anyone showed me their ORCA card for a discount at checkout. Don't forget that you do get discounts with your membership!

A lot of our local LFS helped a LOT with SRC sponsorship and raffle prizes and it couldn't have been as great as it had without them - don't forget to help show your support to them for the great job they did!

[sytanek]

I don't think just because people don't show their orca cards necessarily means they are not supporting the LFS. I can honestly say I don't remember the last time I showed my orca card, but that I visit almost at least one sponsor every weekend. Usually I am just focusing on what things I went to the store for to begin with, and completely forget about my orca card.

[jsl6v8]

I'm with sytanek I never use my ORCA card, I get such good prices at the place I go I would feel bad trying to undercut them another 10%, after all I do want them to be profitable.

[cowboyswife]

Originally posted by jsl6v8
I'm with sytanek I never use my ORCA card, I get such good prices at the place I go I would feel bad trying to undercut them another 10%, after all I do want them to be profitable.

I totally agree!!