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  #1  
Old 09/15/2007, 12:50 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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The transition to "au natural"

I am really interested in filtration systems that rely less on skimmers, filter socks, etc.This discussion was started on another thread--but in order to stop the hijacking I am attempting to get it started here.
This first are cut and paste--apol's to T-man but if I included a link it would get lost in the other thread

I culture and dose live phyto and zooplanktons for my gonioporas so I try to minumize the excess nutrients in the water column with the carbon, I still use my skimmer, the mangroves in mud and the sixty pounds LR rubble/bleached coral skeletons. I guess you could say that I'm "catering' to one specific species of coral, but I've been successful with the very first goni I purchased going on seven years ago- it was an itsie bitsie golfball sized frag when I bought it and now it's a good vollyball size ...I must be doing something right. The two bottles have ro/di with trace elements- one for misting the mangroves and the other stream for salt creep. TinMan

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  #2  
Old 09/15/2007, 01:05 PM
sabbath sabbath is offline
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Isn't a Protein skimmer ( waves crashing on the rocks...) and live rock natural?

I have seen a tank run on cheato only. It was a 90g with about a 40g fuge.

DSB sounds natural to me as well.
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  #3  
Old 09/15/2007, 01:10 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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that iis awesome-----I am curious though as to why you have chosen to do this--what's your other filtration consist of? You have listed the sump/refug(which I have been thinking of lately)
Does this take the place of a protein skimmer for removing DOC's

I am legitimately curious here as I have learned so much tweaking already to my tank from these threads.
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  #4  
Old 09/15/2007, 01:11 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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I culture and dose live phyto and zooplanktons for my gonioporas so I try to minumize the excess nutrients in the water column with the carbon, I still use my skimmer, the mangroves in mud and the sixty pounds LR rubble/bleached coral skeletons. I guess you could say that I'm "catering' to one specific species of coral, but I've been successful with the very first goni I purchased going on seven years ago- it was an itsie bitsie golfball sized frag when I bought it and now it's a good vollyball size ...I must be doing something right. The two bottles have ro/di with trace elements- one for misting the mangroves and the other stream for salt creep. TinMan


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  #5  
Old 09/15/2007, 01:13 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sabbath
Isn't a Protein skimmer ( waves crashing on the rocks...) and live rock natural?

I have seen a tank run on cheato only. It was a 90g with about a 40g fuge.

DSB sounds natural to me as well.
sorry Don---I was interrupted before posting all the thread--
I am referring to having only a mud sump and refugium----but live rock deep sand bed in the tank
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  #6  
Old 09/15/2007, 01:15 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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third post from T-Man:

This is precisely my goal, I also have a six inch sandbed that I have a heluva time keeping pristine (the surface). When I dose, it is directly to the display- whatever is'nt consumed is hopefully removed and by the next mornin', it starts all over again. When I changed over to the 210 from the 125, that's where I started to notice the excess of nutrients and had to do something about it. Between the newer cured LR and the 200 more pounds of LS, I was having algae issues that was way more than I anticipated- here are my results..........
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  #7  
Old 09/15/2007, 01:20 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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T-man---are you running an external refugium also?
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  #8  
Old 09/15/2007, 01:22 PM
sabbath sabbath is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by capn_hylinur
sorry Don---I was interrupted before posting all the thread--
I am referring to having only a mud sump and refugium----but live rock deep sand bed in the tank
Here is a link to a Shop that has a DT set up with only a fuge. It has been running for a while now. It is full of stuff. Ask for Mike. http://www.wetworldeagan.com/
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  #9  
Old 09/15/2007, 06:02 PM
T Man T Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by capn_hylinur
T-man---are you running an external refugium also?
I did on the 125 but not yet on the 210. I have found that the mangroves really do help keep my nitrates at bay. Even though the 210 has ten year plus old LR in it, I'm still in the transition period as far as nutrient export- this being the reason for such a monster canister of carbon.
Now, if you notice in this picture of the filtration system of the 125, I've got a sump and a refugium which IMO was sufficient for the heavy bioload (mostly LPS corals) that was in the tank at the time. At the time, I was gearing up for the plankton reactors and carbon but did'nt follow through until the begining of this year when the 210 came into fruition. I did however dose phytoplankton but not the live baby brine as I am now. I use the phyto to feed the zooplanktons (BB and rotifers) and then dose them both back into the display feeding all my corals and clams with a definate positive result- which brings me back to the unconsumed nutrient export that the sump, skimmer and carbon appear to be keeping at bay.
As you know, this hobby is one giant learning expiriment and subject to change at the drop of a hat..........well, I'm gearing up for a bare bottom SPS dominated that will push me further into an unforgiving water quality demand. The last thing that I want to accomplish with the 210 as it stands now is the addition of a dozen or so scallops, I'm thinking that with my current dosing system, i will be able to keep scallops for extended periods of time as I have the much debated gonoipora.

And the old 125 gallon.................
  #10  
Old 09/17/2007, 07:37 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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if you've had such great success with the gonoipora I am sure you will have success with scallops. Is the refugium on the top purely to supply the zooplankton and the bottom one for filtration.?
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  #11  
Old 09/17/2007, 11:44 PM
T Man T Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by capn_hylinur
Is the refugium on the top purely to supply the zooplankton and the bottom one for filtration.?
Yes, at it's peak it was a "seamonkey" and copepod megalopolis. I would dose two cups of the heavily zoo enriched water to the display every other day - the results were phenominal growth.
You oughtta post some pigs of your filtration system Capn', I'm curious as to what you are doing. TinMan
  #12  
Old 09/18/2007, 12:54 AM
pledosophy pledosophy is offline
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I'm not into filters or skimmers much. I'm not really into water changes either.

I use macro algaes for nutrient export and food production.

I prefer natural methods and have been doing such for the last 5 years or so. It was a big step removing all my filters completely. I do have them still in the garage. In certain applications I do think they are beneficial and would recommend that most don't try the types of setups I use.

Part of why I am succsessful IMO is that my tanks are not stocked heavily by most standards.

So far my tank is doing awesome, I'm really happy with the results.

I moved about a year ago so this tank has only been up since March so it hasn't really stood the test of time yet. Pic is a few weeks old. Looks much the same, but the corals are a bit bigger.



Here is a pic of the plumbing with the refugium sump before water.


Spraybars under the rocks really help to prevent detritus accumulation so far IME



My first refugium on my 44g tank. The refugium would eventually fill with macro and produce enough food to feed 4 fish, I still added live ghosts for the seahorses but they were all to big for the other fish.



HTH
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  #13  
Old 09/18/2007, 01:49 AM
T Man T Man is offline
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Very nice pledosophy, the feather caulerpa actually adds a more "natural" look, did you plan it that way or just having an outbreak. I had a bad case of grape caulerpa, it is amazing how fast the "sea-grapes" can spread from one end of the tank to the other - for me, it took about two months to go six feet. TinMan
  #14  
Old 09/18/2007, 02:37 AM
pledosophy pledosophy is offline
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I actually like it like that. I pruin fairly often. Before I moved I did have a tank that looked like this for a bit.



It was when I was still "experimenting" with how much I needed to get the results I wanted.
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THE MEDIOCRE MIND IS INCAPABLE OF
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CONVENTIONAL PREJUDICES AND CHOOSES INSTEAD TO EXPRESS
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  #15  
Old 09/18/2007, 02:51 AM
T Man T Man is offline
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Invasive is an understatement...........
It's all gone now, after hours and hours of hand picking and a stainless steel wirebrush!!

  #16  
Old 09/18/2007, 07:37 AM
dtaylor123 dtaylor123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by capn_hylinur
if you've had such great success with the gonoipora I am sure you will have success with scallops. Is the refugium on the top purely to supply the zooplankton and the bottom one for filtration.?
An FYI, Flame Sea Scallops live 2-3 years, in the wild, so if after a year the scallop perishes, don't be too bummed, it was a sucess.
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90 gallon brace-less trim-less
external over flow
  #17  
Old 09/18/2007, 07:53 AM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by T Man
Yes, at it's peak it was a "seamonkey" and copepod megalopolis. I would dose two cups of the heavily zoo enriched water to the display every other day - the results were phenominal growth.
You oughtta post some pigs of your filtration system Capn', I'm curious as to what you are doing. TinMan
thanks tinman--I will post some tomorrow----I think I can easily turn my sump into a mirror image of yours and I already have the external refugium.

Interesting point about dosing with the refugium water---mine is set to gravity feed back to the sump and then pump up seven feet to the tank in the room above---I have always felt I am losing some of the copopods etc that way--rather then directly dosing the tank with water ??
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  #18  
Old 09/18/2007, 07:58 AM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by pledosophy
I'm not into filters or skimmers much. I'm not really into water changes either.

I use macro algaes for nutrient export and food production.

I prefer natural methods and have been doing such for the last 5 years or so. It was a big step removing all my filters completely. I do have them still in the garage. In certain applications I do think they are beneficial and would recommend that most don't try the types of setups I use.

Part of why I am succsessful IMO is that my tanks are not stocked heavily by most standards.

So far my tank is doing awesome, I'm really happy with the results.

I moved about a year ago so this tank has only been up since March so it hasn't really stood the test of time yet. Pic is a few weeks old. Looks much the same, but the corals are a bit bigger.

HTH
thanks for joining in and posting pictures----I realize even more that I want to go this route also with natural filtration.
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  #19  
Old 09/18/2007, 08:01 AM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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My 120gal had a 1/2 inch sand bed---I have increased it to 4 inches around the open part not covered by rock( about 1/3 of the surface area) Should I seed that area with a cup of substrated from my 30 gal or will it seed from the rest of the sand bed and live rock(180lbs of live rock) The tank has been up for a year.
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  #20  
Old 09/18/2007, 08:34 AM
dendro982 dendro982 is offline
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Sorry, is it possible to disclose the amount of food, given daily to the whole tank to evaluate the load on filtration, the amount of nutrients, it has to process?

The tank, fed not every day, few pieces of target feeding for LPS, for example, will not require the filtration, the tank with scleronephthya should have (finest food, the whole tank feeding all day long, teaspoon daily for 12g). You see my point.

I'm looking for the improving of my system too.
The best I had - 10g tank with almost an equal size sump with LR and half-filled by different macroalgae (and a lot of bryopsis in the tank, may be this matters). Tank was fed for Christmas tree worms few times a day in moderate amounts, 1/8 cu.in, 3 mm3. Nitrates were within 0-10 ppm, very low phosphates.

After adding scleronephthya and a lot of small gorgonians the feeding increased to several times a day (8-10), the same amount or more each time. Homemade coral recipe blend was the worst - a lot of unused by anyone liquid and out of range particles. The sump with LR and algae was not enough this time.

On the other side, another, practically abandoned tank - very rare small water changes and keeping alkalinity and salinity in check, was very good on its own: 5g, no sump, in-tank LR, some bagged live sand, macroalgae, mysids and corals. Practically no feeding: 1/64 cu. in. (1 mm3) weekly, not on schedule, now and then.
Apples and oranges
  #21  
Old 09/18/2007, 02:44 PM
pledosophy pledosophy is offline
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Over the course of a day I feed my 65g (first tank I put pictures up of) a cube of mysis by SF bay, a cube of Carnivore Cuisine by SF bay, a cube of Emerald Entree by SF Bay, a squirt of Artic Pods from Reeds, and either some Dt's or alternate phyto. It's three smaller meals over the course of the day.

I feed so much now because the tank is still new and the critter life just isn't up there yet.

The bioload for the tank is 3 fish, a pair of peppermints, and 5 snails, as well as the corals you see.

I used all the rock from a previous setup. Cooked it for 5 months, then turned down the temp and let it be a pod culture which I actively took care of for another couple of months. After everything was in the tank the only inhabitant in the first couple of months was a pair of peppermint shrimp. Once everything looked good I moved thefrags I was growing from my 20g to the display, as well as the pink spotted watchman.

The tank that looks like the macro forest from it's own post was running for a few years and had a 20g refugium underneath it. That tank was fed 6 live ghost shrimp a day. Contents were a seahorse, a pair of firefish, a six line wrasse, a lawn mower blenny, a yasha goby,and a manderin. There was also two pairs of peppermints, and several snails (don't quite remember the numbers). Upon tearing down the tank I did find a good sized thorny oyster in the refugium that I never knew was there. Being more established it was able to produce it's own foods. Everything was fat and happy . All the fish that lived in that tank were there for over two years.

Is that a really long anwser to your question?
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  #22  
Old 09/18/2007, 07:46 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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Hey Tin Man: here's pics of my filtration and tank. What I would like to do is turn my sump into what you have---how would you advise I go about doing that.

I added about 3 inches to the sand bed last night---I figured since the tank is about a year old ---the rest of the sand bed under the live rock and the live rock should be able to take the loss of temp bacteria. I didn't know whether or not to seed it from another tank?









[IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4518.jpg[/IMG
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  #23  
Old 09/18/2007, 07:47 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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I had to break it up into two posts:

the filtration is below the tank in the basement. There is exactly seven feet from sump to tank---I'm getting about 2200gph with that mag 3600.
















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  #24  
Old 09/18/2007, 07:58 PM
balmiesgirl balmiesgirl is offline
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love the chaeto.....capn...how is that tub plumbed? and how much flow do you have running through it?
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  #25  
Old 09/18/2007, 08:00 PM
capn_hylinur capn_hylinur is offline
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drilled a bulkhead in the plastic tub--raised the tub up higher then the sump--and gravity feeds it back to the sump.
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