Tired of BAKING baking soda!!! Seeking Alternative - Page 4

David Grigor · #76 03/07/2007, 12:28 PM

Well, last night I mixed and dosed the soda ash sample.

Nothing dead the next morning in the frag tank.................not that I expected there to be.

Mike O'Brien · #77 03/07/2007, 02:00 PM

How did it look upon addition. When I tried the super washing soda it clumped up upon addition.

Snarkys · #78 03/07/2007, 02:25 PM

clumped up when you added it to the tank or when you added it to the fresh water ?

Mike O'Brien · #79 03/07/2007, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by beaker99
If you mix ca(OH)2 with Na2CO3 in solution I would assume you would get a bunch of insoluble CaCo3 which common calk power.

That's why it's a two part addative. Three actually, but you can mix the magnesium with the calcium. We'll be trying to figure that out next.

Mike O'Brien · #80 03/07/2007, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Snarkys
clumped up when you added it to the tank or when you added it to the fresh water ?

Upon addition to the tank. Instead of looking like smoke that dissapates it clumped up and slowly dissolved. I dose in the topoff now anyway, but that would be a pain for people that just add it to the tank.

Snarkys · #81 03/07/2007, 03:16 PM

I will watch for that when i try it.

David Grigor · #82 03/07/2007, 06:31 PM

It looked the same as baked baking soda recipe when added to the tank, the little cloud. Nothing different that I could tell when added manually to a high flow area. On the frag tank it isn't automated or anything and pretty low dosage 20ml a day. Not planning to try it on the show tank anytime soon where everything is automated.

jdieck · #83 03/08/2007, 04:25 AM

Sodium Carbonate behaves a bit strange when dissolving depending if it is Anhydrous, monohydrate heptahydrate or decahydrate.
If what you get is Anhydrous or Monohydrate (which is what I think you got) it will start dissolving and when doing so it will heat up, after that, further aditions will take heat up from the water to form precipitate (Clumps) of hepta and decahydrate which with further mixing will dissolve.
The higer solubility is reached at around 96*F Higher or lower temperature will lower solubility.

Snarkys · #84 03/08/2007, 08:57 AM

ya this stuff is anhydrous, I don't know what the A&H is. This does warm up the water when added. I got no clumps when mixing but i have yet to add it to my tank to see if i get any upon addition .

jdieck · #85 03/08/2007, 09:20 AM

A&H is Sodum Carbonate decahydrate so actually as only about 35% actual Sodium Carbonate, the rest is water molecules.

Snarkys · #86 03/08/2007, 10:24 AM

do you think the soda ash has considerably more sodium carbonate than the baked baking soda ?

jdieck · #87 03/08/2007, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Snarkys
do you think the soda ash has considerably more sodium carbonate than the baked baking soda ?

Difficult to know as it depends much on what is going on in the oven atmosphere but because I have never noticed baked baking soda heating up when mixed I think it might not really become all the way to anhydrous or monohydrate or at least not all of it.

Snarkys · #88 03/09/2007, 12:59 AM

Judging by the fact that i was able to get 4 cups of this FMC 100 into solution without any problem , one would have to assume that the baked baking soda isn't reaching the anhydrous state or we would be able to do the same , right ?

Snarkys · #89 03/09/2007, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Snarkys
I got way more than i need to test this stuff on my tank . I am happy to send some out for free to anyone that would like to try it. all i ask is you pay $5 for shipping. I think the small boxes i have around here will hold about two pounds.

just PM me for my paypal address.

Please be aware while at face value it seems safe to use, it is in no way proven to be reef safe and by using it you are essentially being the ginnie pig. Please don't use it if you are uncomfortable with this.

just wanted to bump this . if anyone wants to try some I am glad to send you some for free + shipping : )

jdieck · #90 03/09/2007, 02:48 AM

I really do not think it is a matter of hydrates because if heated above 228* F it will all become anhydrous, the real question is what happen after that. If overheated a small portion may continue disscociating and become Sodium Oxide after releasing CO2, because it will take up to about 2000*F to turn most of it into Sodium Oxide I shal guess that this efect is neglegible.
Having said that once anydrous it can start absorbing moisture and CO2 from the air (or oven atmosphere which if gas oven, it can contain lots of CO2) and start turning into sodium sesquicarbonate (Na2CO3-NaHCO3-2H2O) How much, well it is difficult to know but again I would say not much.

I think what you are seeing regarding the difference in the amounts that can be dissolved may be due to two factors, first the bulk density of the Sodium Carbonate and second the temperature at which the solution is being prepared.

Sodium Carbonate is made in basically three grades, light, medium and dense. All grades contain the same amount of calcium carbonate for the same weight of the material but their bulk densities are very different, as an example one cup of the dense grade will weight around 260 grams while one cup of the light grade will weight about 140 grams.
So basically you will be able to dissolve 85% more cups of light than from dense.
The FMC 100 is a Natural Light grade with a bulk density of 770 Kg/M3 which is about 193 grams per cup.
Baked Baking Soda basically produces a dense grade of more than 240 grams per cup so basically you shall be able to dissolbe about 30% more FC100 than baked baking soda.

This is a very important difference when preparing Rany's Formula. Randy has made all the volume conversions for us starting with 2-1/4 cups of Sodium Bicarbonate to end up with a solution containing 1900 meq/lt. If nstead of baking soda, 2-1/4 cups of sodium carbonate is used you may end up with a lot more alkalinity than intended to as an example if preparing the formula using F100 you will need only 1.95 cups of powder. to achieve the same 1900 meq/lt.
If using the dense grade Sodium Carbonate you will need only aprox 1.44 cups.
If this adjustment is not made you will end up with a solution with higher alkalinity than intended and will no longer be balanced with the Calcium part. In other words if added in the same amount you will be adding more alkalinity than the Calcium equivalent and long term your alkalinity will increase in reference to Calcium.
Because of the differences in bulk density between the diferent grades of Sodium bicarbonate the most accurate way to prepare the solution will be to use weight instead of cups.
You will need 375 grams of Sodium Carbonate to prepare 1 gallon of solution with 1900 meq/lt of alkalinity

Regarding the temperature at which the solution is prepared; the solubility at temperatures below 95 *F can change significantly with temperature, an increase of only 1.5 *F in temperature can increase the amount that can be dissolved by about 1 percentual point.

Take a look at the chart below:
Any solution to the left and top of the solid line will have no precipitation; now, following the solid line (Saturated solution), at 70 *F (21*C) you can prepare a solution with as much as 18% sodium carbonate. If you heat that solution to 95.7 *F (35.4*C) you can increase the amount of Sodium Carbonate to 33.2% so an increase of about 26*F increased the amount that can be dissolved from 18 to 33%.
Now if your solution with 33.2% at 95.7*F is left to cool back to 70*F the excess Sodium Carbonate will precipitate as Decahydrate and you will end up with a mix of decahydrate crystals in a saturated solution with 18% sodium carbonate.

So within the range of room temperatures from 65 to 85*F you can prepare a solution that range from 20% to 30% in other words at 85 you shall be able to dissolve 50% more than at 65*F.

Snarkys · #91 03/09/2007, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdieck
This is a very important difference when preparing Rany's Formula. Randy has made all the volume conversions for us starting with 2-1/4 cups of Sodium Bicarbonate to end up with a solution containing 1900 meq/lt. If nstead of baking soda, 2-1/4 cups of sodium carbonate is used you may end up with a lot more alkalinity than intended to as an example if preparing the formula using F100 you will need only 1.95 cups of powder. to achieve the same 1900 meq/lt.

first off , thanks for doing the math on this : )

if 1.95 cups of fmc 100 = 2.25 cups of baking soda (both 1900meq/lt) and we are able to get 4 cups of fmc 100 into solution , this means we are able to double the potency of the solution right?

It is my understanding that the alkalinity is the limiting factor in the 2 part ? Could the calcium chloride also be doubled to make this a more viable option for people who have larger tanks or simply last longer for the people with smaller tanks ?

BeanAnimal · #92 03/09/2007, 09:15 AM

*drool* more math... I want double strength for half the volume! That would make my day.

jdieck · #93 03/09/2007, 09:32 AM

Yes the alkalinity is the limiting factor. In theory you could double the potency at 70*F but if you consider that the solution could be subject to lower temperature of 60*F, then in order to prevent precipitation the maximum concentration at that temperature will be approx 2,850 meq/lt which is about 1.5 the potency of the recipe 1
Having said that, note that dissolved Salt (sodium Chloride) in the solution reduces the solubility. Because of this and in order to prevent potential precipitation of crystals out of the solution at the point of addition to salt water which may result in damage to the critters if the precipitated salts are carried and deposited on corals before they can re-dissolve, the potency is preferably lowered to a safer level and making it a bit more "forgivable" to user errors.
So in summary although a more experienced user should be able to handle a solution 1.5 times more concentrated prepared with sodium carbonate rather than baked baking soda, I do not think it will worth the risk.

jdieck · #94 03/09/2007, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
*drool* more math... I want double strength for half the volume! That would make my day.

Do you really?

Snarkys · #95 03/09/2007, 09:41 AM

thanks.

I think i will bring that jug home, set it in my cool basement and see what happens : )

either way, it is nice that this stuff dissolves so easily. Two cups dissolves almost on contact with like 5 seconds of shaking .

Snarkys · #96 03/09/2007, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdieck

Sodium Carbonate is made in basically three grades, light, medium and dense. All grades contain the same amount of calcium carbonate for the same weight of the material but their bulk densities are very different, as an example one cup of the dense grade will weight around 260 grams while one cup of the light grade will weight about 140 grams.
So basically you will be able to dissolve 85% more cups of light than from dense.
The FMC 100 is a Natural Light grade with a bulk density of 770 Kg/M3 which is about 193 grams per cup.
Baked Baking Soda basically produces a dense grade of more than 240 grams per cup so basically you shall be able to dissolve about 30% more FC100 than baked baking soda.

Forgive me, I'm am just trying to understand this all the best i can. Im sure I have it all wrong : )

so if all grades contain the same amount of Sodium carbonate for the same weight of the material, we need 240 grams (1.24 cups) of FMC 100 to have the same sodium carbonate content/weight as one cup of baked baking soda right ? This would mean we need more volume (cups) of FMC 100 to be the same equivalent as the baked baking soda rather than less.

Quote:

This is a very important difference when preparing Rany's Formula. Randy has made all the volume conversions for us starting with 2-1/4 cups of Sodium Bicarbonate to end up with a solution containing 1900 meq/lt. If nstead of baking soda, 2-1/4 cups of sodium carbonate is used you may end up with a lot more alkalinity than intended to as an example if preparing the formula using F100 you will need only 1.95 cups of powder. to achieve the same 1900 meq/lt.

So if I am understanding this right, we use 1.95 cups of FMC 100 at 193 grams per cup, that is a total of 376 grams. So if all grades contain the same amount of Sodium carbonate for the same weight of the material then wouldn't that mean that 376 grams of our baked baking soda would have the same amount of Sodium Bicarbonate as the 376 grams of FMC 100 ? The baked baking soda is 240 grams per cup so that is only 1.56 cups of baked baking soda that would be required for this recipe which is not right.

I'm sure i went wrong here somewhere and i just need to better understand it : )

jdieck · #97 03/09/2007, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Snarkys
So if I am understanding this right, we use 1.95 cups of FMC 100 at 193 grams per cup, that is a total of 376 grams. So if all grades contain the same amount of Sodium carbonate for the same weight of the material then wouldn't that mean that 376 grams of our baked baking soda would have the same amount of Sodium Bicarbonate as the 376 grams of FMC 100 ? The baked baking soda is 240 grams per cup so that is only 1.56 cups of baked baking soda that would be required for this recipe which is not right.

I'm sure i went wrong here somewhere and i just need to better understand it : )

All grades contain the same amount of Sodium Carbonate thus the same amount of alkalinity per unit of weight, not per cup and yes, 375 grams of Baked Baking Soda have the same amount of Sodium Carbonate (not bicarbonate) than 375 grams of FMC 100 or in other words 375 grams of baked baking soda have the same amount of Alkalinity than 375 grams of FMC100
I know it can be confusing.

Randy's formula starts with baking 594 grams of Baking Soda. Because baking removes water and CO2 from the baking soda the initial 594 grams of Baking Soda result in only 375 grams of Sodium Carbonate (Baked Baking Soda).
So basically on Randy's formula you are using 375 grams of Dense Sodium Carbonate that weights between 240 and 260 grams per cup so your initial 2-1/4 cups of Sodium bicarbonate, become approximately 1.5 cups of Sodium Carbonate after removing the volume of water and CO2 from the Sodium Bicarbonate.

WARNING: Stop here if you already got it

Baking produces the following dissociation:

2NaHCO3 ----> Na2CO3 + H2O + CO2

In other words 2 moles of Sodium Bicarbonate produce one mole of Sodium Carbonate.

In numbers: 168 grams of Sodium Bicarbonate (or 2 moles of it) produce 106 grams of Sodium Carbonate (one mole) plus 18 grams of water (one mole) plus 44 grams of CO2. (one mole)

Doing the Math (I love this!

) 594 grams of Sodium Bicarbonate when baked results in roughly 374.8 grams of Sodium Carbonate plus 63.6 grams of water vapor plus 155.6 grams of gas CO2

as a result on Randy's formula you are only using 375 grams of Sodium Carbonate not 594 grams.

Hope I am not making this more confusing?

Snarkys · #98 03/09/2007, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdieck

Randy's formula starts with baking 594 grams of Baking Soda. Because baking removes water and CO2 from the baking soda the initial 594 grams of Baking Soda result in only 375 grams of Sodium Carbonate (Baked Baking Soda).
So basically on Randy's formula you are using 375 grams of Dense Sodium Carbonate that weights between 240 and 260 grams per cup so your initial 2-1/4 cups of Sodium bicarbonate, become approximately 1.5 cups of Sodium Carbonate after removing the volume of water and CO2 from the Sodium Bicarbonate.

Doing the Math (I love this!) 594 grams of Sodium Bicarbonate when baked results in roughly 374.8 grams of Sodium Carbonate plus 63.6 grams of water vapor plus 155.6 grams of gas CO2

Thanks for taking the time to further explain this : )

Part of my misunderstanding was while i realized that baking the baking soda removed some of the volume and weight I didn't realize it was 219 grams of weight and 3/4 cup of volume.

I have read many threads about people who bake the baking soda first and then take out 2 1/4 cups, I was aware this was a mistake but looks like a bit more sizable mistake than i had originally thought.

thanks again , Ryan

jdieck · #99 03/09/2007, 05:42 PM

BeanAnimal · #**100** 03/09/2007, 07:05 PM

moles.... hrmm I always hated them in chem class... that meant balancing equations was soon to follow. I never had a smokin hot chem teach... so that meant I just hated it and was bored.