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  #101  
Old 03/07/2006, 05:55 PM
Shaun120 Shaun120 is offline
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I just found out a friend of mine, who uses Coralife salt, is having problems with his PH being low and not being able to get it up no matter how many water changes he makes (no jokes please). I picked him up a Selfert Alk test to aid him in the diagnosis of his problem. After he tested his salt water he found that the alk was at 16dkh. Now my friend is somewhat new after getting back into to the hobby after a break from aquariums, but I trust in his ability to use the test. When I questioned him on the process he indicated he had to add nearly a whole ML of the final reagent to get to endpoint. That sounds right for a high Alk reading.

I just thought this might be another indicator of the problem being experienced at the plant in CA where all this salt is made and the QA problem that apparently exists.

I must stress that I did not first hand see the results, or every condition existing with his tanks, but I asked for a sample of his salt that I would test. An interesting fact if true.

The story continues...
  #102  
Old 03/07/2006, 07:20 PM
Freed Freed is offline
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My IO salt tests out to have a dkh of 11-16dkh with every batch but it really doesn't concern me as the tank I change the water on is a 180 gallon so it would make a very minimal increase to my overall dkh which is usually in the 8-10 dkh range anyway. Calcium is always low in the salt mix at 370 or so too. Could be better.
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  #103  
Old 03/08/2006, 08:00 AM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
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I just found out a friend of mine, who uses Coralife salt, is having problems with his PH being low and not being able to get it up no matter how many water changes he makes (no jokes please).

FWIW, water changes are not usually a suitable way to raise pH, and the nature of the mix that you get is not going to cause low tank pH (unless the alkalinity is too low). Tank pH is determined by the carbonate alkalinity and the amount of CO2 in the water (which is largely determined by the amount of CO2 in the air).

These articles describe how to deal with pH issues:

Low pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm

High pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.htm
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  #104  
Old 03/08/2006, 09:52 AM
Billybeau1 Billybeau1 is offline
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I am currently using Coralife salt. New mix tests at 11 dkh and my tank is holding steady at 10 dkh. Calcium is at 430.
  #105  
Old 03/08/2006, 10:31 AM
Shaun120 Shaun120 is offline
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Thanks Randy for your input,

I would never say I am an expert on any part of this hobby that attitude would get me in trouble. After about 14 years of trying, I have discovered a few things and retained some information in regards to reef aquariums. I also have a small background in sicence (BS Biology + Clinical Lab Testing 13 years). I also know where good information exists, the articles you listed in your post are great.

I also know water changes are not a good way of trying to correct PH. I did not add all the information related to his issue (not related to this thread) and had already instructed him on the affect 02 (adding aeration) and CO2 (directly) have on PH and had given him some instruction on how to see if that may be the cause. I also discussed with him the buffering capacity of his tank and its affects, and other possible causes. He had some animals die, and had been performing the water changes to make sure that poor water quality conditions were not a factor (degradation of organics to C02). I have already pointed my friend to the articles you mentioned and have read them myself several times, again its great information. This is one reason I do not like posting. Its hard to know someone's background or their experience level with these issues. I know you did not know this information and were trying to help.

The point is, the reason I posted the information at all is because I thought the high alk readings he received seemed to back up some conditions happening at the plant that process Kent, Coralife, and Oceanic salt. That was the information I was trying to relay not how to correct PH, which would not pertain to this thread anyways.

Thanks for the input though... and sorry if I misdirected anyone to a different topic.

I'm out!

Last edited by Shaun120; 03/08/2006 at 11:24 AM.
  #106  
Old 03/08/2006, 11:14 AM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
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I have already pointed my friend to the articles you mentioned and have read them myself several times, again its great information. This is one reason I do not like posting. Its hard to know someone's background or their experience level with these issues. I know you did not know this information and were trying to help.

I agree. It is an issue I deal with many times per day. The backgrounds of folks posting in this forum range from those wondering whether to replace evaporation with salt or fresh water, to those experienced chemists that are wondering about the relative incorporaton rates of different isotopes of strontium into coral skeletons as a function of temperature. I often have no way of knowing where on that spectrum any individual poster falls.

I hope that my post did not insult you. Please understand that things that I post are also often directed at others that read the thread, and not just the poster himself.
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  #107  
Old 03/08/2006, 11:54 AM
Shaun120 Shaun120 is offline
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No insult taken Randy, I just thought I would clarify, what I was trying to relay...plus assumptions on my end led me to leave out information that would explain the water changes in relation to the PH.

BTW the topic of different isotopes of Strontium and its incorporation rates makes my brain hurt, and reminds me of Dungeons and Dragons...not that I ever played that game.
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  #108  
Old 03/08/2006, 07:32 PM
sherm71tank sherm71tank is offline
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I spoke with John from Kent Marine today on the phone. He said he received the salt sample I sent and had it analyzed. In fact the salt was low in alk and high in calcium like my tests showed. He asked what I wanted from him. I said "nothing, I was able to catch and correct the low alk before any of my animals died". I asked him if their salt was being made by someone else and he confirmed it is being made at the same facility that Coralife and a few others are being made at. This was a result of them being bought by Central. I said that's to bad it happened and will be using Tropic Marin in the future. He agreed but that's what happens with big corporations. Looks like I won't be buying any more Kent products, a real shame in my book. Oh well, Tropic Marin here I come!
  #109  
Old 03/08/2006, 08:08 PM
IBASSFSH IBASSFSH is offline
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Acquisitions

This is not a outcome of the merger or buy out, but rather poor quality control. I have been through a merger or two, and quality is something that is in place prior , during, and after the deal is done.
They got lazy and it bit them in the rear (really their customers). Some poor guy probably mixed that batch of salt on a Friday afternoon or a Monday morning after a long weekend. They either new about it, and decided to let it go or they just plain and simple did not quality check their work.
I work in a manufacturing facility and we make the same decisions everyday based on how much crap and operator produced. If its a little bit it goes into the trash, if its alot it goes to the customer with our fingers crossed. Sometimes it works and sometimes it does not.
The only difference is our bad products don't have a life or death impact on living things.
  #110  
Old 03/09/2006, 01:33 AM
Atomahawk Atomahawk is offline
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Ibassfsh,

I certainly don’t want to contradict you as your experience maybe completely different from my own. My experience at the manufacturing level is strictly related to the aquatic part of the pet industry so I feel very comfortable to say this, Central buying Kent and the others is just plain bad for the industry, let me explain. Most smaller companies like Kent did fairly well with quality control if they started it from the get go. Most would never have gotten were they were prior to being purchased without certain checks and balances. The only limiting factor is cost related to have the right people in the right area’s, ex: quality control. I would say that most companies that have survived their first 5 years learned what they needed to do to bring a quality product to market. The ones that didn’t simply faded away, or sold their companies for the value of their patents if they had any.

I won’t assume to know exactly how Central runs all the smaller companies they own, but I can say this, at one time they were a distributor of lawn and garden products and then pet products were added. They were not a manufacturer and in my book are still not manufacturers, even though they own a few. Under this context I don’t believe they have the mindset of what it takes to properly R&D, manufacture, QC, sell and distribute products for the good of our industry. For all we know, they may have kept the same staff that were their prior to purchasing these companies or they may have asked for changes to reduce cost, I don’t and have never worked for these companies, but I did know many of the people that did when I worked in the industry and many left when some of these buyouts were announced, (I remember ESU clearly) every manufacturer knew this was bad for the pet industry. Why? Because they knew that this would lock them out if Central had a line that competed with them and with time would take up more retail spots that many had. Then when they were firmly entrenched in the stores they could turn around and reduce the cost of manufacturing with quality first grade bulk chemicals or labor with much lower grades or overseas labor. This hurts manufacturers and finally consumers because it requires sales to R&D your next product, it costs to QC a good product and it takes years to gain recognition and dedication from consumers.

Of course, like you mentioned it could have been a bad day for someone or they never had good quality control prior to being purchased. But given Kents past I think it’s safe to say the changes had an effect.

I don’t want to seem overly pessimistic and I would rather be wrong than right, because I love my hobby and have for 35 years, but my perspective on the matter tells me that what were seeing with the Kent salt is only going to happen more often. Why? Dare we say profit?
  #111  
Old 03/09/2006, 10:22 AM
Shaun120 Shaun120 is offline
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I agree with Atomahawk, like IBASSFSH, have also been with companies that have been taken over either through purchase or merger but every time it happened the same things seemed to occur.

1) Management is shuffled around to get the parents company's personnel into the purchased/merged company's command structure.

2) Misdirected decisions are made. The reason for a purchase or merger is to either enter into another business they are not currently in but a large profit margin exists, or strengthens their current business interests. Sometimes decisions made that worked in one business unit are the wrong decision in another.

3) Try to squeeze any possible amount of profit out of the products being produced...good idea for shareholders.

Now this is not always the case but larger companies have a different customer to answer to…their Shareholders, not the ones purchasing the products. It’s a shift from the obligations of smaller companies and businesses have to their customers. The little guy’s Economy of Scale is so small or local in some cases they can not afford to hack off a hundred customers or more, their business depends on us.

The reason that quality control usually suffers is because a larger company is able to absorb financial consequences of instances in which poor QC or inferior products cause problems for consumers. Because they have purchased the Kent name which HAD a great reputation and customer base, Garden will duke as many customers as they can for as long as they can. Thanks to the ability of people to exchange information quickly via the internet to tons of people the message gets out sooner (THANKS RC). The time frame that a product reputation would go down the craper would take years in some cases, and Garden will make alot of money during that time. At the end of the cycle they will try to improve the product minimally or not at all if no options are available to the consumers. At least with RC we can get this information out quickly...but hey Garden is probably looking at Tropic Marin next to purchase.

The moral of the story is put your trust where you feel it’s deserved like Empire has expressed.

Just my 2cents…Looks like I am moving off topic, sorry.
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Last edited by Shaun120; 03/09/2006 at 10:58 AM.
  #112  
Old 03/09/2006, 11:01 AM
aquaconnect aquaconnect is offline
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I think Kent will lose a lot of business over this. This would have never occured if there wasn't a cover up, and they would have been honest about what happened. I am the customer Umpire talks about who Kent lied to and got this whole thing started, which Kent continued to do to others all over the country, until it snowballed. I lost another Acan Lord over this mess. Those things are bullet proof if that gives you any idea of the scope of what Kent salt did to my reef, and I am still battling algae. I only have one coral left that may die, and it's a Lord too. I think I'll send John and Chris from Kent a bill to replace these, lol. That's what it's going to take for me to be happy. We should all ask for cash to replace what they fixed, like the Lemon Law. Look at what happened to President Nixon!!!! LOL
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Oh crap, not another icestorm!!!
Now tornados in January?
What's next, the big earthquake everyone's been talking about for years!
  #113  
Old 03/09/2006, 12:17 PM
BrianPlankis BrianPlankis is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sherm71tank
I spoke with John from Kent Marine today on the phone. He said he received the salt sample I sent and had it analyzed. In fact the salt was low in alk and high in calcium like my tests showed. He asked what I wanted from him. I said "nothing, I was able to catch and correct the low alk before any of my animals died". I asked him if their salt was being made by someone else and he confirmed it is being made at the same facility that Coralife and a few others are being made at. This was a result of them being bought by Central. I said that's to bad it happened and will be using Tropic Marin in the future. He agreed but that's what happens with big corporations. Looks like I won't be buying any more Kent products, a real shame in my book. Oh well, Tropic Marin here I come!
Did he happen to mention if the problem had been corrected? I am worried to switch to another salt. At least I still have one full 200gal bucket of Kent left (a good one, already tested).

Brian
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  #114  
Old 03/09/2006, 12:23 PM
aquaconnect aquaconnect is offline
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When I spoke with them the problem wasn't corrected, which is why they sent 'comp' items instead. I wouldn't use it anymore if I were you. Switch to Tropic Marin.
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Thanks for removing my signature RC!
Oh crap, not another icestorm!!!
Now tornados in January?
What's next, the big earthquake everyone's been talking about for years!
  #115  
Old 03/09/2006, 12:23 PM
aquaconnect aquaconnect is offline
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When I spoke with them the problem wasn't corrected, which is why they sent 'comp' items instead. I wouldn't use it anymore if I were you. Switch to Tropic Marin.
__________________
Thanks for removing my signature RC!
Oh crap, not another icestorm!!!
Now tornados in January?
What's next, the big earthquake everyone's been talking about for years!
  #116  
Old 03/09/2006, 12:30 PM
umpire umpire is offline
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This is all good. People taking a moment to stop and think about this whole ordeal. Putting some good thoughts down on (paper) for people to read and consider. And like AQUACONNECT said, Kent brought this on themselves. They lied. If it were not for that I would have never posted anything regarding this matter. I would still be in Kent's corner waiting for them to get the salt fixed. Not now though. SHERM71TANK your TM salt should be their on Monday, I think. Let me know.

And as far as Kent testing the salt. I think SHERM71TANK said John said it was low in alkalinity. Hello, We knew that a long time ago. Sounds like they got out the Salifert test kit and spent about 30 cents and 2 minutes testing the sample.

Does not matter, I have sent an unopened 200 gallon bucket off to a laboratory to be analyized. Including shipping $500.00. Thanks Kent!

Sincerely,

James Tucker (UMPIRE, Shaun, UMPIRE!) You wouldn't know, your a hockey fan. Just kidding.
  #117  
Old 03/09/2006, 12:46 PM
umpire umpire is offline
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Oh my goodness. You are worried about switching to another salt. You have got to be kidding! Did you just apply at Kent for a job? They have screwed up tanks all over from the east coast to the west coast, north to south and you are wondering it they got the salt fixed because you are worried about switching. People like you are what Kent is depending on. They have lied to the buying public and you are ready to buy their products. I am very sorry to say this but if that is how you feel. You and Kent belong together! Forgive me for being blunt. This is exactly what Kent is wanting. The buying public to be indifferent. People like this is why Kent will get by with this. So very sad.

James Tucker
  #118  
Old 03/09/2006, 02:57 PM
BrianPlankis BrianPlankis is offline
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James,

I don't know where THAT came from. You could have just asked me WHY I was worried instead of jumping all over me. I really dislike personal attacks when I was just voicing a concern.

To everyone else,

I have a valid concern about switching salts. I was using Kent and it got expensive in Houston, so I switched to another salt (Crystal Seas) that was cheaper and several local aquarists loved it and their tanks looked great.

I tested it before adding it to my tank and the values I could test for were: Ca: 380ppm, Alk, 10dKH, Mg 1350ppm, Phosphate, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate all zero, pH 8.1. So it looked like a good salt. I slowly switched over using 10% WCs, one per week.

To make a long story short, 2 months after starting to switch over to Crystal seas my corals started to decline and I ended up losing 5 frags of zoas and a few mushrooms and over half of my corals looked bad. I bit the bullet and bought Kent again and within a couple of weeks of 10-15% WCs every 3 days the corals stopped getting worse and started getting better.

The most obvious example I took a picture of was my "colt" coral:

Here it is after 2 months in Crystal Seas and just starting to use Kent again, it was even more white than this when I started switching back to Kent:


Now that I've been using Kent since December 05, here is what it looked like on 02-19-2006.


Sure it could have been something else other than the salt switch, but I doubt it. So I won't be using Crystal seas again and now that Kent has handled this formulation error badly I'll be switching to another brand. So I had some concerns.

But I'm also done with this thread, I can't stand it when I'm personally attacked, this is a hobby after all.

Cheers,

Brian
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  #119  
Old 03/09/2006, 03:30 PM
aquaconnect aquaconnect is offline
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Well, if your done with this thread so be it. All of my info is for the hobby. If you want to use Kent, then go right ahead, I would just be forwarned. Tropic Marin is the best, it's from Germany, quality control is not an issue with those folks. So continue to use their product, and I can personally send you the skeletons from my huge Acan Lords as proof in the puddin' that their dead because of Kent. No personal attack here, just offering you my proof. I have supreme water quality, and wouldn't spend thousands on dollars on coral if I weren't fully confident in my reef skills. I'm not a millionaire with a disposable reef, I have an awesome reef and am very proud of it, but I think Kent took advantage of those they tainted. Your opinion is valid CirolanidHunter, but again, why not take these valid points into consideration. You must understand that Umpire lost his ENTIRE 700gal reef!!!!
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Thanks for removing my signature RC!
Oh crap, not another icestorm!!!
Now tornados in January?
What's next, the big earthquake everyone's been talking about for years!
  #120  
Old 03/09/2006, 03:33 PM
aquaconnect aquaconnect is offline
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BTW, salt expense shouldn't be an issue if you want the best for your corals. If you invest in coral, you should put out the buck and save your investment with quality products, I guess that's my point. Switching is no big deal. I did a 160 gal water change on a 180gal reef to get Kent out of my system, and my corals personally thanked me. Just 2cents more from me.
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Thanks for removing my signature RC!
Oh crap, not another icestorm!!!
Now tornados in January?
What's next, the big earthquake everyone's been talking about for years!
  #121  
Old 03/09/2006, 03:51 PM
DeLong20 DeLong20 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by aquaconnect
I did a 160 gal water change on a 180gal reef to get Kent out of my system, and my corals personally thanked me. Just 2cents more from me.
Wow!!!! You can speak Coral!!!! That is awesome! I heard of a blue hippo tang that could speak whale but never coral!

Sorry Aqua, couldn't resist!














*Puts on flame retardant suit*
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  #122  
Old 03/09/2006, 04:24 PM
umpire umpire is offline
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Brian,

It could have been anyone, that made those statements and I would have responded the same. Was not trying to offend YOU. Was trying to make a point! If you, the buying public let Kent off that easy, they will have won. It is only people like you that can make a difference. Please hang in there! There are better salts and better companies to support. Forgive me as well. You are not the bad guy. I am not either. Kent is the one that has messed up.

Sincerely,

James Tucker
  #123  
Old 03/09/2006, 07:39 PM
sherm71tank sherm71tank is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by CirolanidHunter
Did he happen to mention if the problem had been corrected? I am worried to switch to another salt. At least I still have one full 200gal bucket of Kent left (a good one, already tested).

Brian
He mentioned that they have taken steps to make sure it didn't happen again. Those steps should have been there in the first place. I'm sure if they were asked before this happened if they had quality control measures in place like those mentioned the answer would have been yes as well. It is being made in the same factory with Oceanic and Coralife that I know of. I would not use Coralife or Oceanic and I won't use Kent if it's being made there either. If you have a bucket that is pre-Central then I am sure it is fine but if it has the new Yellow lettering and bags inside it I would not use it. Even after they get the problem fixed the salt is not going to be the same Kent salt that it was.
  #124  
Old 03/09/2006, 09:54 PM
starseed starseed is offline
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Quote:
I have a valid concern about switching salts. I was using Kent and it got expensive in Houston, so I switched to another salt (Crystal Seas) that was cheaper and several local aquarists loved it and their tanks looked great.

I tested it before adding it to my tank and the values I could test for were: Ca: 380ppm, Alk, 10dKH, Mg 1350ppm, Phosphate, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate all zero, pH 8.1. So it looked like a good salt. I slowly switched over using 10% WCs, one per week.

To make a long story short, 2 months after starting to switch over to Crystal seas my corals started to decline and I ended up losing 5 frags of zoas and a few mushrooms and over half of my corals looked bad. I bit the bullet and bought Kent again and within a couple of weeks of 10-15% WCs every 3 days the corals stopped getting worse and started getting better.

Sure it could have been something else other than the salt switch, but I doubt it. So I won't be using Crystal seas again and now that Kent has handled this formulation error badly I'll be switching to another brand. So I had some concerns.
I had a similare expereince switching from Kent to IO, my tank mates didn't like it. When I went back to Kent, things looked better.

I'm wanting a new salt that is quality and will make my tank mates happy.
  #125  
Old 03/09/2006, 10:12 PM
aquaconnect aquaconnect is offline
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I'd go with Tropic Marin, I'm telling everyone, it's the best. It's lab grade, the same salt is used in breast implants and in hospitals all over the world, and from Germany. It's not cheap, but it's worth the investment. I went with Kent because it was supposed to be the best by word of mouth. After this, I really research, and my corals haven't looked better in years. I've used IO, Coralife, Kent, Reef Crystals, and a couple other off brands in my years of reefing and given them time, and Marin has been the best. I've used it for 2mts now and I'd just tell you to buy a bag/bucket and try it. You'll be hooked, and my reef is now turning around. I wish I would have taken pic's during the Kent crash for documentation, but hideside is 2020. I'll spend whatever it takes now. People go spend hundreds on lights, tanks, pumps, closed loops, and ultra rare, unique corals. They buy cal. reactors, tons of supplements, and then try to save a buck on salt. I've done it, and most reefers have. Thats the key though, cheap and cheap quality, whether you think or not. I've tried to save a buck here and there, use this, use that, and found in reefing that if you just spend the money and do it right the first time you save money in the long run. I wish I had the money I spent on trying to cut corners over the years. But now it's done right, and the salt may cost more all at once, but if you just figure it per gallon, it's only cents. Just like gas prices, they go up, but I keep on buying high octane, because that's what my car requires. I can buy 87 octane, but man the Chrysler 300 Hemi just won't run the same, and I'll screw it up in the long run, just trying to safe a buck here and there and then drop a load of cash I would not have, if I just would have spent a little more to prevent the problem. That's my comparison. Take it for what it's worth.
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Thanks for removing my signature RC!
Oh crap, not another icestorm!!!
Now tornados in January?
What's next, the big earthquake everyone's been talking about for years!
 

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