An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement Article Posted

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My most recent article has posted:

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part
Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

the contents:

Introduction
Comparing the Two Primary Recipes
Recipe #1
Recipe #1, Part 1: The Calcium Part
Recipe #1, Part 2: The Alkalinity Part
Recipe #1, Part 3: The Magnesium Portion
Recipe #1, Part 3A
Recipe #1, Part 3B
Recipe #2
Recipe #2, Part 1: The Calcium Part
Recipe #2, Part 2: The Alkalinity Part
Recipe #2, Part 3: The Magnesium Portion
Recipe #2, Part 3A
Recipe #2, Part 3B
Dosing Instructions
Substitutes for Dowflake Calcium Chloride
Substitutes for Dead Sea Works Magnesium Chloride Hexahydrate
Where to Buy the Materials
Calculation Rationale for the Recipes
The Design of the Calcium and Alkalinity Parts
Residual Ions from the Calcium and Alkalinity Parts
Residue Remaining from Recipe #1 when using Recipe #1, Part 3A
Residue Remaining from Recipe #1 when using Recipe #1, Part 3B
Summary
Reference Links

[Phreak]

Randy.... My local Home Depot carries what is made by the Dead Sea Works called Mag Ice Melting Pellets..... Looks to have some Mag chloride,Calcium chloride, Potassium chloride and Sodium Chloride in it.... Can this be used? It might be the same as the Mag Flakes but just in pellet form.... I figured I'd leave it up to you to decide.... As always, any help from you is greatly appreciated...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

MAG pellets are, I expect, OK but I'm a little wary about the list of other ingredients that you post. Where on the package did you see that listed?

Does it look like the bag in this link:
http://www.meltsnow.com/products-dry...m-chloride.htm

[Phreak]

It is the same exact bag......... Whats the word on it....

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I expect the pellets are OK to use.

[Gooli]

Randy...i look forward to trying this method of dosing. I have been using B-Ionic which has given good results and a good balance - but it is expensive.

Question...I use Instant Ocean salt and from what i recall it is pretty rich in magnesium (i do 10% water change every two weeks) - do i still need to use the 3rd part?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The magneisum in IO (which I do not think is above natural levels when I've checked it) does not offset the need for part 3.

[fishtk75]

Is there also a DIY doser plans that someone knows of to put together so I can use this recipe I saw a pic of the one they sell it does not look hard to put one together to save here too? I did post this on DIY forum put no luck.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

ESV sells a doser, and I'm sure that some folks have put together their own, but I have not seen posted plans. A peristaltic pump certainly works well, as would something like a aqualifter on a timer. The fluids can be diluted as much as you want with fresh water, and they can be dosed as fast as you want, if added to a high flow area.

Here's ESV's doser:

http://www.esvco.com/prod9.html

[fishtk75]

thank you

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Good luck.

[cla337]

I'm missing something. The recipe says to add part 3 after adding a gallon of part 1 and 2? Can someone clarify? from what I understand, I:
1) make the 3 parts in separate gallon containers
2) make individual adjustments to the tanks alk and Ca with parts 1 and 2 independently
3) combine parts 1 and 2 together (?)
4) add part 3 separately when the gallon of 1 and 2 are finished (???)

[fishtk75]

Originally posted by cla337
I'm missing something. The recipe says to add part 3 after adding a gallon of part 1 and 2? Can someone clarify? from what I understand, I:
1) make the 3 parts in separate gallon containers
2) make individual adjustments to the tanks alk and Ca with parts 1 and 2 independently
3) combine parts 1 and 2 together (?)
4) add part 3 separately when the gallon of 1 and 2 are finished (???)

Yes to add part 3 after 1 and 2 is done you do not use a lot of part 3 not every day.
Yes to #1
Yes that is what I read to do is number # 2 but both at the same time every day.
never do #3
Yes to #4

I need to know is the dose chart from decial L to mL how to convert so I know how many mL to put in so if .05L is how many ml?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I need to know is the dose chart from decial L to mL how to convert so I know how many mL to put in so if .05L is how many ml?

1 mL = 0.001 L, so 0.05 L = 50 mL

This article may be useful:

The Units of Measure of Reefkeeping
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-08/rhf/index.php


3) combine parts 1 and 2 together (?)


You add equal volumes fo them to the tank,ut you do not mix them outside the tank.


4) add part 3 separately when the gallon of 1 and 2 are finished (???)

Yes, but remember that you are adding only a small amount, not the whole gallon of Part 3.

[johns]

Randy-

Will you be giving a recipe for utilizing Epsom and some other easier to find Mg supplements like Kents Mg (or any of the 'Reef' brand Mg supplements), for those of us having trouble or not wanting to get the MgCl2 de-icing salt?

Maybe you have done this already and I missed it?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The problem is that those recipes do not always tell me exactly what is in them. I had been hoping to do that, but then the discovery that the Seachem product was not ionically balanced made me worry about whether the others are, and if they are, what that balance actually is that they chose to use (and for that matter, how much magnesium is actually in them).

However, if you use 5 parts of the ESV or Kent additives and 2 parts of the Epsom salts (based on magnesium content), that will be pretty good.

[johns]

However, if you use 5 parts of the ESV or Kent additives and 2 parts of the Epsom salts (based on magnesium content), that will be pretty good.

Randy-

Can I double check what you are saying here? Using Recipe 1, after I add 1G of each Parts 1 and 2, the original instructions say to add 2.25 cups Epsom solution. Based on your above recommendation, I would alter the amount of Epsom to 2/7 of 2.25 cups. Is that right?

The rest would come from my Kents, and I still dont understand what volume I need because I dont know how the Mg concentration compared to the Epsom (what I mean is, I still dont know if I need to make up to difference in kents to bring it to a total of 2.25 cups). Maybe I'll just test Mg after the Epsom addition and afterwards bring Mg up to a set number using the Kents.

[fishtk75]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
I need to know is the dose chart from decial L to mL how to convert so I know how many mL to put in so if .05L is how many ml?

1 mL = 0.001 L, so 0.05 L = 50 mL

This article may be useful:

The Units of Measure of Reefkeeping
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-08/rhf/index.php

3) combine parts 1 and 2 together (?)

You add equal volumes fo them to the tank,but you do not mix them outside the tank.
4) add part 3 separately when the gallon of 1 and 2 are finished (???)
Yes, but remember that you are adding only a small amount, not the whole gallon of Part 3.

thank you
Randy
I hope I am reading this right too as to mixing I had a old clean no soaped SS 2 gallon pot and heated the R/O water up a little to mix the mix's up easier is that what you meant when you said to warm up to help mix?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can I double check what you are saying here? Using Recipe 1, after I add 1G of each Parts 1 and 2, the original instructions say to add 2.25 cups Epsom solution. Based on your above recommendation, I would alter the amount of Epsom to 2/7 of 2.25 cups. Is that right?


So let's use ESV as an example as they give the exact magnesium content of their B-ionic Magnesium to be 36,000 ppm.

http://www.esvco.com/prod10.html

It is a little tricky as that is more dilute than my additive (Part 3 is 47,000 ppm magnesium).

So using ESV and epsom salts, I'd make up 1 gallon of my Epsom salt mixture (Part 3B). then when it is time to add the magneisum part, use 2/7 of the recommended amount (2/7 x 610 mL, for example = 174 mL) and some of the ESV product (5/7 x 47,000/36,000 x 610 ml = 568 mL).

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I hope I am reading this right too as to mixing I had a old clean no soaped SS 2 gallon pot and heated the R/O water up a little to mix the mix's up easier is that what you meant when you said to warm up to help mix?

Yes, that is a fine way to do it.

[johns]

So using ESV and epsom salts, I'd make up 1 gallon of my Epsom salt mixture (Part 3B). then when it is time to add the magneisum part, use 2/7 of the recommended amount (2/7 x 610 mL, for example = 174 mL) and some of the ESV product (5/7 x 47,000/36,000 x 610 ml = 568 mL).

OK I can do that. But now I just need someone to come to the rescue with the ppm of Kents Tech M. Then I should be set.

Can anyone help?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Kent says theirs is "over 70,000 ppm".
http://www.kentmarine.com/saltwater/tm.html

One issue with both this and the ESV value is I am not sure whether that means 70,000 mg/L, or 70,000 mg/kg (which is ppm). For a concentrated salt solution, they can be rather different.

In any case, you'll use less of the kent material, and the calculation would be more like:

Make up 1 gallon of my Epsom salt mixture (Part 3B). then when it is time to add the magnesium part, use 2/7 of the recommended amount (2/7 x 610 mL, for example = 174 mL) and some of the Kent product (5/7 x 47,000/70,000 x 610 ml = 293 mL).

[johns]

Randy-

Thank you again. I did also see the note about Kents Tech M more than 70,000 ppm. But there is one discrepancy I am trying to work through that leaves me uncomfortable.

Using the calculator here:
http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

I tried comparing (empirically) the use of ESV and Kents Tech M to raise a set volume of liquid from one level of Mg to another level. It sems you always need 1.23X more ESV product than Kents. This, to me, would suugest the Kents Tech M is 1.23 X more concentrated than ESV, right?

SO where is the discrepancy in the calcuations here? In one case, ESV is added at 568ml. In the other case, Kents is added at 293ml. Almost a 2-fold difference.

So, should we presume that the person who wrote the calculator knew the actual concentration of Mg in Kents?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ah, I see the problem. ESV updated their product, but not their web site. According to Marine Depot:

"
ESV B-Ionic Magnesium
Through the chemical process known as "ion-pairing", magnesium ion concentration influences the saturation point for calcium carbonate in solution. In general, the further the magnesium concentration drops from natural seawater levels (1350 ppm), the more difficult it becomes to maintain adequate levels of both calcium and alkalinity. Magnesium also plays an important role in stabilizing pH by interacting with the buffer system of seawater. ESV B-Ionic Magnesium is an easy to use one component liquid supplement which, when used with B-Ionic Calcium Buffer or kalkwasser, will not disrupt the ionic balance of closed marine aquaria. B-Ionic Magnesium does not contain nitrates, phosphates, organics, or chelating agents. B-Ionic Magnesium contains 60,000 ppm magnesium, and one mL will raise one gallon of aquarium water by 15 ppm."

So my calculation needs to be adjusted if you want to use this concentration. The claculator is correct.

[cla337]

Why wouldn't you add the magnesium part in smaller increments on a more regular schedule than simply after the alk and ca gallons are finished. hmmm...maybe I have to do more math for myself...so a 100gal mixed stocked tank @~1ml/gal/day of recipe 2 would be 100ml/day...so after about 38 days the gallon of alk and ca are finished and that's when I toss in 2.5 cups of the magnesium. but that does not consider the volume of the tank. I want to know what a suggested daily volume to volume ratio I should (or even weekly to keep levels more regular).

Say I had only 10 gallon tank, then I would finish the gallon of alk and ca in 378 days, then I throw in 2.5 cups of mag...into a 10 gallon tank...it seems obsurd unless I'm missing something. I do understand that I have to test out what my exact demand is, so I may not use exactly 1ml/gal/day. I used that to simplify the explanation for my confusion other than my lack of math/science thinking.

please help to clarify, b/c I really want to try this out.