just how exactly can i get my alk/cal stablize???

[MoonSoft]

If you want an idea of what alk you need to keep your calcium in solution at a target level use this dosing calculator i have been using it for some time and it's helped me a lot!
Dosing Calculator

Use the calcium and the alk part you'll see it lists the Balanced Calcium level then you can target the level you want.. be CAREFUL about making big changes. I do not use the two part solutions since i feel it is better to control each aspect separately, the two part solutions only seem to be good for me when and if i get everything stable. By then you might as well keep testing for a week and see what you consumption is. Then you can just figure a dosing schedule to keep it constant.

[dzhuo]

Originally posted by jdieck
dzhuo:
After reading the four pages of this thread I see you keep trying to balance things up but there got to be something else going on IMO.
I do not think your Alk and Ca consumption is as high as the amounts you have been adding may suggest so I have a feeling that whatever you are adding continues to precipitate even if the water does not seem cloudy.

i suspect exactly the same thing as you and it's the primary reason why i start this thread because it seems like i am adding A LOT of stuff to my tank but somehow i can't figure out why the hell they went to. the derasa clam is the only critter in my tank that grows very fast. but i still don't think the clam alone can suck up 20ml of part A and part B on a daily basis. the chaeto in my fuge don't grow much and i don't have a lot of coraline algae.

Can you let us know if you are still adding Kalk mix in addition of the two part B_Ionic?

yes i have continue to drip limewater (prepared by pickling lime)

If so how much of Kalk mix are yoou adding?

1 drop per 6 seconds. the limewater is prepared with 1 tsp of pickling lime per gallon of distill water. it would take approx. 4 days to finish 1 gallon of solution.

if you can point out what i might be doing wrong, i will be very happy because with the rate of adding b-ionic, it looks like i need to buy additional bottles very quickly.

[dzhuo]

Originally posted by MoonSoft
I have always found that if you add the alk component first then wait about 30 min and add the calcium component you get better results, you have to have the alk base to hold the calcium in solution

that's good to know. i tried to add part B as soon as the part A disappear. i will try to wait for 30 minutes after adding part A and see if that imporve the situation.

[dzhuo]

Originally posted by MoonSoft
If you want an idea of what alk you need to keep your calcium in solution at a target level use this dosing calculator i have been using it for some time and it's helped me a lot!
Dosing Calculator

i have been using that calculator from day one. thanks!

[RustySnail]

Remember; coral skeleton is very densly packed with calcium/carbonate, while your levels in the water column are in the ppm. Growth of skeleton will rapidly utilize/deplete these building-blocks from the water column if not replentished. The rapid depletion in your tank is likely due to the small water volume vs. a rapidly calcifying organism (your clam). If it's too costly to use the B-Ionic; try switching to Randy's Recipe.

[jdieck]

Well.. Randy is on vacation so I will try to help here... With the addition of a quarter of a gallon of lime water (Although may not be saturated at only 1 teaspoon per gallon) plus 20 ml of B Ionic per day I think the addition might be in the high side.
Rather than keep trying to adjust the dose I would like to propose one test once and for all to determine your consumption.
I will ask you to stop all additions, No buffers at all, no lime water, no b-ionic no kent superbuffer for 48 hours.
Test PH, Alkalinity and Calcium at the begining of the test and at the end of the 48 hour period. Try testing at the time of day you will also be available 48 hours ahead.
If you want better certainty, try testing the water three times on three different samples at the begining and end. Then we can average the readings of the three tests.
We will measure the daily rate of consumption by dividing the drop in the average readings by two. Once the consumption is determined we can calculate the amount of buffers to:
a) bring the parameters to the desired levels
b) determine the amount of daily dosage needed to maintain them there.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Theoretically if he were to never add any more animals and the calcium consuming organisms just stagnated, then this would work, but with unexpected biotic decay (creating acids), and the additions of more animals (coral), and the growth of existing organisms, the calcium demand would change, so how would this system still work?

Demand changes slowly, and one can easily change the dose required as the weeks and months and years pass by. It does not need to be redetermined on a daily basis.

you have to have the alk base to hold the calcium in solution


That's not true. If anything, having higher alkalinity and pH makes it more likely to precipitate, not less.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think the addition might be in the high side.


I agree that he seems to be needing to add a lot.

Perhaps one of his kits is not accurate.

The test above sounds like a fine plan.

[jdieck]

Hey Randy:
You are supposed to be enjoying yourself at the lake!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You are supposed to be enjoying yourself at the lake!



OK.

Thanks for all the help here!

[RustySnail]

Looking at his "trends" the Alk depletion rate is somewhere between 15-20ml's/day (plus limewater). 15ml's is not quite enough; 20ml's too much. I would try 17mls/day and see if that is adequate. I dont think this is an overly high alk depletion rate; my 150g seems to have an insane Ca/Alk demand (on the order of 400ml's/day of A/B if there is no Ca reactor or Limewater drip). Of course alk depletion rate will slow if the levels drop down below 6 dKH; but it will quickly deplete to this level if I am not continually adding the supplement(s).

[dzhuo]

ok, i did a water change tonight and i added (an hour after water change) 20mls of part A and part B. i am going to try out RustySnail's method of 17ml/day for a week and see what happen. if that doesn't help, i am going with jdieck's test. my main concern with jdieck's method is that i need to have a very good parameters (say 11dkh and 430ppm of cal) to begin with.

otherwise, if my numbers are already like 7.2dkh and 380ppm, i am sure the drop in 2 days aren't really meaningful because alk tend to drop less after 7dkh.

thanks!

[MoonSoft]

What exactly are you dosing your system with?... it is possible if you have been adding two part solutions or othe alk additives you have put too many ions into the system other than your carbonate alk component, and maybe thats why it's not stabilizing, and you are unable to increase alk and Ca

[dzhuo]

What exactly are you dosing your system with?

ESV B-Ionic 2 parts. i put equal amount of each part to the tank on a daily basis.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't think there is any problem caused by other ions in the B-ionic.


i am going to try out RustySnail's method of 17ml/day for a week and see what happen. if that doesn't help, i am going with jdieck's test. my main concern with jdieck's method is that i need to have a very good parameters (say 11dkh and 430ppm of cal) to begin with.

Sounds good.

[dzhuo]

i have been adding 17ml of b-ionic for a few days now. i am going to take measure tomorrow night.

on a side note, i have noticed that my two alveopora almost always react negatively (close down) soon after i added the b-ionic. with a couple weeks of observation, i am positive that somehow the alveopora must not liking the b-ionic. nothing else in the tank is expericing or showing any negative reaction. in fact, the derasa clam and the porite coral are growing very fast.

no one on this thread happen to have alveopora right?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

i am positive that somehow the alveopora must not liking the b-ionic.

I do not have alveopora, but I expect I'd have heard by now if the effect was anything other than high pH, calcium, or alkalinity.

Do you add the B-ionic near it?

How long after an addition before you see the effect?

[dzhuo]

i didn't add it near the alve. i added in front of the powerhead so the solution is blowed all over the tank and the cloudiness disappear really fast. it's usually after 30 or 45 minutes after i added the b-ionic that that alve (both of them. i have 2. one large and one small) started to display negatively. their polyps and tentacles would slightly (but not much. big enough for one to notice the differences) reatract.

[jdieck]

I have one in my 330 gal system. Alveos need a very stable water parameters and a good supply of suspended matter. I think it will be extremely difficult to keep in a small aquarium in all accounts. The slight change in PH, alkalinity, salinity or temperature is enough to stress it.
I keep mine at a PH of 8.06 +/- .04, a Temperature of 79*F +/- 0.5*F an Alkalinity of 10 dKh +/- 0.5 dKh and a salinity of 1.025 +/- 0.0005 sg

[dzhuo]

i am totally aware of the history of alveos. i have mine for about 4 months so it's fairly new. i have dosed b-ionic before but i did not notice this until recently. maybe it's because i have increased the dosage that upset the alveo. maintaining a small tank is just that trickier. the clam and the porite love the b-ionic but others don't.

[dzhuo]

like i promise, i took measure tonight. this time, i measured it twice. once before i added the regular 17ml dosage and another after. so at 7:40pm before i added anything:

pH: 8.0
alk: 6.8
cal: 370

i then added 17ml of part A and part B (b-ionic) and at 8:40pm, i measure again:

pH: 8.0
alk: 9.0
cal: 380

so what do you guys think? should i raise the 17ml dosage to 20ml? if so, i really want to change the plan to 10ml in the morning and then 10ml in the evening instead of 20ml at the same time. my reasoning is that the alveo seems to hate b-ionic at large dosage. again, i observed the same behavior 30 minutes later after i added b-ionic.

let me know what you guys think. thanks for helping me out!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think that looks like a fine dosage. I probably wouldn't raise it unless that 6.8 dKH starts dropping more.

Splitting the dose is a fine approach.

[dzhuo]

so i have been doing the 10ml in the morning and 10ml in the evening thing for a few days now. tonight, i decided to measure parameters:

this is before i add the 10ml evening dosage:

alk: 7.0
pH: 8.4 - 8.5

these are after (few minutes later) i add the 10ml evening dosage:

alk: 9.1
cal: 385

so it's safe to assum that alk swing between 7.0 to 9.1 on a daily basis. cal seems to have stablized as it's always somewhere between 380 to 390. pH is constantly between 8.3 to 8.5. i think the reason why pH is a little high is because i am dripping limewater. i will try to reduce the pickling lime on my next bottle.

so:

alk: 7.0 - 9.1
cal: 380 - 390
pH: 8.3 - 8.5

those are what my tank's daily parameters. what do you guys think? good or bad? should i just continue to do what i am doing now?

i am starting to think that my sand bed might have to do with the reason why my alk/cal are constantly low despite the heavy dosage of b-ionic. i have notice that in many places in my sand bed, the sand have become very hard and thus it will prevent water from circulating into the sand bed. in other word, my sand bed might not be helping me buffering my tank. is this a known issue? i am trying to get a sand sifting goby (must be small) and see if that will help.

thanks!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

so it's safe to assum that alk swing between 7.0 to 9.1 on a daily basis. cal seems to have stablized as it's always somewhere between 380 to 390. pH is constantly between 8.3 to 8.5. i think the reason why pH is a little high is because i am dripping limewater. i will try to reduce the pickling lime on my next bottle.

That all looks fine to me. If you did back off on the high end of the pH a bit, that might decrease the abiotic demand for calcium and alkalinity, but it isn't otherwise a big problem. Maybe a little vinegar in the limewater would do the trick.

[dzhuo]

around 1pm, i added the morning dosage of 10ml of each part and 2:30pm, i took measure:

pH: 8.5
cal: 360
alk: 9.7
sg: 0.124
mg: 1470
temp: 81

it seems like i can never get my cal up despite tons of b-ionic was added on a daily basis. i am going to stop dripping limewater as it's not doing anything except keep my pH so high. i am very disappointed.