just how exactly can i get my alk/cal stablize???

[RustySnail]

Originally posted by dzhuo
if i go with the original plan which is to add 10ml of part A and part B each day. will there by any problem?

I don't think so; unless your pH is actually 8.5-8.6. What -might- happen is too much precipitation when you add the Alk part because of the high pH/Alk of it. Does your tank get cloudy for a prolonged period when you add the Alk solution? That should be indication that you are reaching the upper limits of pH.

Randy- If the pH is high (8.5-8.6); can you maintain the Alk lower than 8 dKH with good results? Would this be similar to running a low pH (7.9-8.1) with higher dKH (10-11)?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

can you maintain the Alk lower than 8 dKH with good results? Would this be similar to running a low pH (7.9-8.1) with higher dKH (10-11)?

I'm not really sure, but perhaps, yes.

[dzhuo]

no, the alk solution (which is part A) clear out within seconds. after it clear out, i add the cal solution (which is part B). no cloudy at all.

assume my pH is at 8.5 or 8.6, you are saying i should continue with the original plan and add 10ml of each solution each day? or are you saying, i will have problem if my pH is really at 8.5 or 8.6.

thanks!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, I'd continue the plan, but long term I'd look to keep the pH max to 8.5 or less.

[dzhuo]

ok, i will continue to add 10ml of part A and part B tonight.

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Yes, I'd continue the plan, but long term I'd look to keep the pH max to 8.5 or less.

and the best way to limit pH is ... ? should i add vinegar to the lime solution?

thanks!

[dzhuo]

so i have resume adding additive: 10ml of part A and 10ml of part B. i will continue to do so and check alk/cal Sunday. I will post picture then.

thanks!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd add the alkallinity part of the two part in the morning, to reduce the pH max. I wouldn't yet use vinegar or soda water. But you can add vinegar directly to the limewater if you want. 45 mL vinegar per gallon of limewater.

[dzhuo]

As planned, i added 10ml of part A and 10ml of part B. Will post alk/cal/pH tomorrow.

thanks!

[dzhuo]

ok i like promise i took measure of the tank parameters today:

pH: 8.5 (or 8.4)
alk: 6.8
cal: 350

so the 10ml of part A and part B plan doesn't work at all. never able to maintain alk or cal. the numbers are before i add any additive tonight. i am planning to continue the plan because obviously it doesn't work. the numbers are worse than it was before. in fact, for some reason, one of my alveopora is very stressed for some reason.
let me know what i should do next?

i am going to add a cup of kent superbuffer to bring alk up and then i will use the chemistry caculator to figure out how many part B i need to bring cal to the 400 range. pH is also fairly high, i think that's caused by dripping limewater.

thanks!

EDIT: i added a cup of kent superbuffer and 35ml of part B

[RustySnail]

over 4 days (going back to 6/15) your dKH has dropped down from 8 to 6.8. That change would require approx 11ml's net of B-Ionic to get back to a stable level. Didn't you stop dosing it for one day? If so, your dKH would be stable if you add 10ml's per day.

You might try and target a higher dKH level (say 10dKH) for your "average low" so that if it drifts down some it wont fall below an acceptable level before you correct it. You can make Randy's A-Part with (Recipe 2, baking soda) to adjust the dKH without causing the pH to go higher. You are essentially doing this by adding the kent superbuffer; might be easier to switch over to baking soda for your A-part to keep the pH in-check. The b-Ionic causes pH to raise; might not be the best thing to use in terms of pH management on a small volume (with limewater addition).

[dzhuo]

yes i did stop for a day because the pH is kind of high (actually, it's difficult to see from the chart because the color is either close to 8.6 or close to 8.0. i don't know which way it's. today, i look it through the sunlight and it's close to the 8.6 scale. it's blueish). so you think that day of missing part A would be able to maintain my alk at 8dkh? i have targetted 10 in the past but it's very difficult (for some reason), it drops rapidly. if you look at the numbers i posted in my original post, one day it would be perfect at 10 but the next, it would drop to 8. and then i would have to add kent superbuffer. once alk goes up, cal would be down. and then i have to add b-ionic part B. once cal is up, alk would be again down. i just find myself in a loop where alk is good but cal is low. as soon as i correct cal, alk is off again. so i back to correct alk just to find cal is down again... this cycle has been going on for 4 months.

i bought Arm & Hammer baking soda but i haven't use it yet since people tell me kent superbuffer will accomplish the same thing.

since i already added kent superbuffer and 35ml of part B tonight, i am not going to add anything until next night. i will post alk/cal/pH tomorrow and then we will go from there.

thanks a lot for your (and Randy's) help! i really appreciate it.

[RustySnail]

Originally posted by dzhuo
it drops rapidly. if you look at the numbers i posted in my original post, one day it would be perfect at 10 but the next, it would drop to 8.... i just find myself in a loop where alk is good but cal is low. as soon as i correct cal, alk is off again. so i back to correct alk just to find cal is down again...

Yes, it does! The dKH in my 150 can drop by 3dKH in one day! But that's a -good- thing because the calcium/alk is being utilized for growth. The thing you need to keep telling yourself is "calcium wont drop without alkalinity use". Limewater adds both calcium and alkalinity. It in itself is a balanced additive. If you boost Alk without adding Ca and then the Alk levels fall again; the Ca level will have dropped twice without being replentished. Then you test Ca and see that the level has dropped way down (misleading because it was steadily being used the whole time).

The simplest way to solve this see-saw effect is to add equal parts of A/B and don't test the Ca levels very often. Let the Ca level track with the Alk level to keep it at the correct concentration (I rarely have to test for Ca level anymore I just add balanced A/B and the Ca level stays stable).

If you find that you have to add a lot of Alk; use Randy's A-Part in place of the B-Ionic at the proper volume to raise levels; while adding an appropriate volume of B-part of B-Ionic to keep it equal. It takes 3x as much of Randy's A-part to equal the Alk-part volume of B-Ionic; so you would add the volume of Randy's A-part the calculator tells you and then add 1/3 as much for the Calcium part of B-Ionic.

i bought Arm & Hammer baking soda but i haven't use it yet since people tell me kent superbuffer will accomplish the same thing.

since i already added kent superbuffer and 35ml of part B tonight, i am not going to add anything until next night.

You can use kent buffer; but the issue is always having to measure and correct the level. If you have an A-part stock solution that will not cause pH to raise it will be easier (IMHO).

Good plan to wait until tomorrow to go back to the 10ml's (or so)per day...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If 10 mL per day for several days isn't adequate to keep alkalinity drom dropping below 7 dKH, then I'd try 12 mL per day for a few days. If alkalinty continues to drop below 7 dKH, then up it again after a few days.

[dzhuo]

wow that sounds a lot of b-ionic to add consider the manufactored recommandation is 1ml per 4 gallon of water. so when i add equal amount of b-ionic, the 2 parts balance each other out so how can it raise the level to where i want them? i can understand that IF i already have the right and balanced (10dkh & 430ppm cal), i should add equal amount of part A and part B. but the problem now is that i can't seem to able to find the balance point so if i keep adding equal amount of part A and part B, it will maintain this unbalance parameters. it sounds like i need to RAISE alk/cal first but adding equal amount of 2 parts can't accomplish this? what am i missing?

thanks!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

wow that sounds a lot of b-ionic to add consider the manufactored recommandation is 1ml per 4 gallon of water.

ESV recommends:

"Our recommended starting dose is 1 ml. of each component per 4 gallons of aquarium capacity per day. Maintain alkalinity between 3.0 and 3.75 meq/liter (8.4 and 10.5 dKH) by testing daily and adjusting dose accordingly. Depending on the degree of calcification occurring in the aquarium, dose may have to be significantly increased over our recommended starting dose. Never add more than 1 ml. per gallon of each component in a 24 hour period, and never allow pH to rise above 8.45. "

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Two part additives can raise levels just fine. Added in equal amounts, they will raise alkalinity by 1 meq/L (2.8 dKH) for each 20 ppm calcium.

Last I saw, your levels were:

alk: 6.8
cal: 350

So that could theoretically boost to:

alk 9.6 dKH
calcium 370 ppm

Note that if you want to raise levels, you will often need a lot more than the manufacturer's recommendation.

Also, it would be a fine idea to boost the calcium a bit relative to the alkalinity, and to do so, this calculator will help you determine how much of the calcium part alone to add:

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

[jdmhonda954]

this is to answer your question from the other thread where you asked what to supplement( all IMO it works for me) and you posted the link to this thread.

i have a jbj 12 gallon i do a 4 gallon water change every 2 weeks as well as top off daily but i have top off water for my 150 so its no big deal. i have a cherry head goby that takes care of sand and 15 small snails that do the glass and rocks. i test every weekend and add trace elements using marinvit and aragamilk(also from my 150). the tank is only 2 months old and has lots of color and the corals are flourishing. i have a finger leather,gsp's,zoo's,lobophyllia,mushrooms,plate. for fish i have 2 clowns, scooter blenny, sailfin blenny,firefish,cherryhead goby,and skunk cleaner.

[dzhuo]

so i checked water parameters again tonight:

cal: 380
alk: 8.1

so looks like alk is up after a cup of kent superbuffer last night. cal is also up by 30ppm. i did a 10% water change tonight. something horrible happen again!!! i prepared for 1G of salt water yesterday. tonight, i added a cup of kent superbuffer to it and after the water change, the tank become cloudy again. i knew i have another calcium precipitate event! Randy, if you remember i have had one such event just about a week ago:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=608218

the scale of this event is much smaller compare to the previous one. in fact, it's starting to clear out after 20 minutes. i have add kent superbuffer countless times to my tank and this is the first time something like that happen. i mean why?

anyhow, i didn't add anything tonight. i will measure parameters again tomorrow night and see what the numbers are.

thanks!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You added a cup of superbuffer to a gallon of water? What does that mean? Superbuffer is a solid. A cup is a massive amount. Do you mean a teaspoon dissolved in a cup of fresh water? That is still way too much to put into 1 gallon of salt water, and it will initiate a precipitation event.

[dzhuo]

yes sorry, it's a teaspoon. no, the direction says get a cup of ro/di water and add a teaspoon of kent superbuffer to it. after it mix, pour it into the tank. instead of adding a teaspoon to a cup of ro/di, i added a teaspoon to a 1G of mixed salt water. maybe this is the problem but i have done that before without problem. anyway, i certainly won't do that again knowing there is a possibility of a precipitation event. i will post alk/cal/pH later tonight. thanks!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

maybe this is the problem

Yes, that is a problem. Dissolve it only in fresh water, and add to the whole tank volume.

[dzhuo]

ok. thanks Randy!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Good luck.

[dzhuo]

ok, after last night's mini precipitate event, i measured parameters again tonigh:

cal: 340
alk: 8.0

i think those are to be expected because of what happened last night. I added a teaspoon of kent superbuffer and 56ml of part B. i will check parameters again tomorrow night. one i get alk/cal to the levels i want them. i want to go back to Randy's 10ml-daily plan and see if it will work out this time.

thanks!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I bring the calcium back up with either calcium chloride or the calcium part of the B-ionic.