Carbon source for denitrifying bacteria

[leebca]

Bomber,

It is essential that all necessary strains of water purifying bacteria always be present if the goal is water purification.

and. . .
[B[

Simple sugars would fall into the same class as DOC's, such as tannins and phenols and increased levels of these inhibit nitrification by favoring one specific type of heterotroph over another.

[/B]

I'm still focused on denitrification. What do I care if I inhibit some nitrification bacteria (which I have an abundance of) so long as I can kick-start the dentrifyers to do more work?

[Bomber]

You guys are comparing freshwater to saltwater.

In freshwater the lack of adequate bicarbonate (alkalinity) inhibits nitrification. Bicarbonate is not limiting in saltwater expect in very rare cases, none of which are occurring in an aquarium.

I can see how this would be a good idea (in some cases) in fresh water and not necessary at all in saltwater.

Dosing one particular carbon source in saltwater is going to skew your variety of bacteria to specific types that can use that source.

Which would be no different than over feeding or the addition of any other carbon source. You don't need to do that in saltwater.

[Navyblue]

Originally posted by Bomber
You guys are comparing freshwater to saltwater.
Which would be no different than over feeding or the addition of any other carbon source. You don't need to do that in saltwater.

From the DOC perspective, yes we are adding more of organic stuffs in the water. But I guess it isn't quite the same as over feeding as it is not the same organic made up as animal secretion or food decomposition. In over feeding there is much higher nitrogen content and in sucrose there is absolutely none.

One side note is during dosing increased skimmer activity is observed. Is it directly due to the presence of sucrose? Or the skimmate is some sort of waste product of bacteria? Assuming the later, one factor that may cause the decrease in nitrate is probably due to more efficient exportation of nitrogenous waste by skimming. Possible?

[Navyblue]

Can some one please enlighten me whether bacteria can live and multiply in a concentrated sucrose solution?

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Navyblue
From the DOC perspective, yes we are adding more of organic stuffs in the water. But I guess it isn't quite the same as over feeding as it is not the same organic made up as animal secretion or food decomposition. In over feeding there is much higher nitrogen content and in sucrose there is absolutely none.

Aren't you adding sugar to get rid of nitrogen? assuming carbon is limiting?

First you need to figure out if carbon is limiting in freshwater, if it's limiting in a denitrification filter and why, and if it's limiting outside of those constraints and really limiting in a saltwater aquarium.
Then you can figure out how polar dosing to skew bacterial levels can come back to haunt you later.

[leebca]

Navyblue,

In a saturated sucrose solution (which it sounds like you prepared -- but for it to remain saturated, there should always be some undissolved sugar at the bottom of the container) bacteria aren't happy to grow.

However, other microbes do like it, like some types of fungi. Nature finds a way to get at most kinds of energy sources.

Optimally, it is best to keep it refrigerated and don't make up more than you will use in a couple of weeks.

[Navyblue]

Thank you all for your insightful debate here, I might be out of tempo to chime in .

Thanks Leebca for the explaination. Would this same yeast or fungus survive in the tank as well? If it does how will it affect the reef tank?

I agree that we do not know what will happen in long term for tilting the population, which is my main concern.

From my earlier dosing I get a bacteria bloom from overdosing. And it is also noted in the German website of dosing vodka. During the bloom the nitrification bateria didn't seem to fail, or at least not to decline to a significant degree.

Although in my case it wiped out more than half of my more mobile livestock (2 fishes 3 shrimps dead vs 2 fishes 1 shrimp alive), less mobile ones like starfishes, tube worms and corals are fine, which I speculate is oxygen problem.

Can we say that by boosting the population those bacteria that utilises sucrose/ethanol does not threaten much of the population of the nitrifying bacteria? Let alone we are dosing at a lower rate? To my understanding is they do not compete for the same type of food, though I'm not sure of any indirect competition, someone correct me if I am wrong.

[leebca]

Navyblue,

Most likely not. The microbes enjoying the saturated sucrose would not likely find the tank a suitable habitat.

From my earlier dosing I get a bacteria bloom from overdosing.

I wonder if the 1 tsp sugar/100g/month rate would create a bloom?

I appreciate your experiment very much. Our hobby is riddled with too much theory and not enough data. I've never seen a group so caught up in discussing theory, when the answers can be found through experimentation. Maybe it's perpetrated by people who make their living through lecture and discussion?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Dosing one particular carbon source in saltwater is going to skew your variety of bacteria to specific types that can use that source.

If the goal is to take up nitrogen and phosphorus, any growing bacteria will do. So if adding a carbon energy sources drives even one species to multiply rapidly, then it will, in at least the sense, be successful.

They may not be the species that convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate to N2, or anything else. But they will need nitrogen and phosphorus for proteins, DNA, and and every other biochemical in their bodies that contains N and P.

[Bomber]

I did think of that.

But my question is still why? Dosing like this will give you a bacteria that you normally would not have in those numbers, that places a heavy load on the system, uses resources in the system that can and will take those resouces away from a normal balance of bacteria, critters, and animals that you are asking the system to support.

What happens when those skewed bacteria run out of that short supply of food? Do they crash and release everything back into the system?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

But my question is still why? Dosing like this will give you a bacteria that you normally would not have in those numbers, that places a heavy load on the system, uses resources in the system that can and will take those resouces away from a normal balance of bacteria, critters, and animals that you are asking the system to support.

What happens when those skewed bacteria run out of that short supply of food? Do they crash and release everything back into the system?


I'm not suggesting that it is a good thing to do.

I haven't added a carbon source for many years, since my last test with sugar where some corals turned brown.

[Navyblue]

Originally posted by leebca
I wonder if the 1 tsp sugar/100g/month rate would create a bloom?

By looking from the dosing of my tank, I would say it is very safe even though all tank varies.

I dose 6 ml in an estimated amount of 40g.

By using a crappy kitchen balance, I got a figure about 1 g/ml concentration. Meaning I dose roughly 15g/100G a day for several weeks without any bloom. But one thing may be needed to take note is I started ramping up the dosage from roughly 1.25g/100G.

[Navyblue]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
I haven't added a carbon source for many years, since my last test with sugar where some corals turned brown.

Probably I do not see this effect as all of my coral is already rather brown from the start

What corals turned brown Randy in your case?

But i do notice my blue mushrooms turning brown, as I do ask in other thread and the speculation is too much light. It is 6" under roughly 3 stripes of PC light.

Yesterday I introduced a small piece of browed out acropora, while in the LFS it looks dark brown, when I got it home it is only light brown, today when I came home it is only white skeleton with some brown tissues hanging on the skeleton, a goner. May be due to the sugar, but I think more likely is it is already dying as the colour started to fade while in the bag, and probably also that I take it out of water for about 10 min to glue it on the rock. Or all the above are the reason.

[Navyblue]

Originally posted by Bomber
What happens when those skewed bacteria run out of that short supply of food? Do they crash and release everything back into the system?

I'd say very likely.

But ss myself and the Germans noted increased skimmer production while dosing. Is it also possible that at least a significant of these stuffs are skimmed out?

Actually I think apart from the nutrient utilisation by the bacteria, Or even bacteria does nothing, skimmer removal plays a part.

[Navyblue]

Btw I am now reducing the dosage to 3 ml per day in a freshly prepared solution as mu old solution ran out, and see whether the 0 nitrate holds and is there any pH decrease.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It was years ago, and I am having a hard time distinguishing the effects of sugar, and the effects of iodate addition, that was not near in time to the sugar, but also caused some color changes. IIRC, tan polyps darkened substantially, and one other type of coral darkened (browned), but I do not recall which species.

[Navyblue]

Another observation from my previous dosing and I also started to see it now, is that I have this mucus like strand on the glass.

I have another question, can bacteria be skimmed out?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Some bacteria will be skimmed out. Many will be attached to surfaces and will stay in the tank.

The mucus strand may actually be bacterial colonies.

[Bomber]

I'm having coffee. How about you guys?

But while I'm trying to get more than one synapse to fire at a time, I'm thinking about this.

You're adding a nutrient to reduce other nutrients in the hopes that feeding one nutrient will cause the uptake of the other nutrients. In effect causing the nutrients that you're trying to get rid of to become limiting.

Why not just eliminate the source of the first two nutrients?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm having coffee. How about you guys?

I'm having Diet Pepsi.

[Why not just eliminate the source of the first two nutrients?

Wait. Don't tell me. Let me guess. Sand beds?

[Habib]

Why not just eliminate the source of the first two nutrients?


If posible and if it would not have a negative effect then that might be the best way.
However, if the increasse in P and N is because C is limited then I see no problems in adding C.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Wait. Don't tell me. Let me guess. Sand beds?

Noooo Mr. Pepsi LOL

You can keep sand beds clean too.

However, if the increasse in P and N is because C is limited then I see no problems in adding C.

That's the one I'm having a problem with Hab - good evening to you

[Navyblue]

How can we explain the increase in skimmate production?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How can we explain the increase in skimmate production?

Bacterial waste products and secretions seems likely to me. I also think that is why ozone impacts skimming: bacteria consume the organics that have become more bioavailable, and then in turn release organics to the water.

[Habib]

Originally posted by Navyblue
How can we explain the increase in skimmate production?

Waterborne bacteria.