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  #101  
Old 08/17/2004, 03:37 PM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
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Gee I don't know, what do you think has happened when bays, lagoons, aquatic environments stop thriving after a number of years?

So if we suck all sand off the bottom of the ocean, all eutrophication concerns would disappear?

It clearly says sediment.

Overview for "sediment"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The noun "sediment" has 1 sense in WordNet.

1. sediment, deposit -- (matter deposited by some natural process)


To me, shrimp poop on the bottom of a shrimp tank seems to fit the definition nicely.
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  #102  
Old 08/17/2004, 03:43 PM
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I guess that's because you're a chemist. To marine bio people, sediment means sediment, not detritus. And believe it or not, you're right. If we could remove the sand/gravel/sink/sediments and let it continue to flush out to the abyss and tectonic plates.

Are you going to address any of the points I've brought up?
  #103  
Old 08/17/2004, 03:56 PM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
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Which points? These?

When a system is no longer able to properly support the animals, plants, etc that it is required to support and/or designed to support.

That's an OK definition, although it may not permit us to distinguish acute events, which many folks associate with crashes, from years long trends.

Do folks believe that an increase in nutrients (phosphorus, I presume) would necessarily lead to a crash?

Hello, this thing on?


So all folks with elevated phosphate must have already crashed, but missed the event while watching a commercial?

Are we just talking phosphorus, or do you include nitrogen, metals, etc,?

What types of aquaria are being discussed?

All of them


Including soft coral tanks, which I though you indicated might not be "crashed" by elevated phosphate and/or nitrate?

I still can't believe people are putting rust in their tanks.


What do you think it does that's bad?

Keeping in mind that using these "other mechanisms" you will only be removing the most reactive form of phosphorus, water soluble, limiting phosphorus - what has to happen in marine environments in order to have water soluble phosphorus?

I don't understand the question. All natural environments have water soluble phosphorus.

What would have to take place in a aquatic system in order to have something that's limiting available in it's most available, most reactive form?

Something else be limiting?

Nitrogen and iron can easily be limiting in natural and reef environments. So could other things, possibly, if these are all available. Or phosphate can be limiting. Or growth isn't nutrient limited at all, but rather by light/space/predation/etc.

I do not presume that phosphorus is limiting in all aquaria. You do seem to conclude that.
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  #104  
Old 08/17/2004, 03:58 PM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
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Take ammonium for instance, how long does it hang around? Do you try and remove it in that state, or do you wait until it's incorporated/changed/saturated and leaks back into the system in another form, or ultimately as ammonium again?

In my system, I frankly do not know if macroalgae consume it before it gets converted to nitrite or nitrate. I also don't really care, from a husbandry standpoint.

Why would I treat phosphorus differently?
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  #105  
Old 08/17/2004, 03:59 PM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
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owing that P is staying in the tank doesn't say where. Sand, coral bodies, fish bodies....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That's where a knowledge of sulfur/sulfide reducing bacteria comes in handy.


I guess that I do not have npough knowledge of them to understand the point.
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  #106  
Old 08/17/2004, 04:14 PM
Bomber Bomber is offline
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Which points? These?

Yes and it's about time. Making fun of Bomber was getting old.

That's an OK definition, although it may not permit us to distinguish acute events, which many folks associate with crashes, from years long trends.

At least I came up with one. Acute event falls into my definition of "accident".

So all folks with elevated phosphate must have already crashed, but missed the event while watching a commercial?
Are we just talking phosphorus, or do you include nitrogen, metals, etc,?

There you go again. LOL Tell you what 'BUY MORE SNAILS'. What you missed was the post about some corals tolerating elevated P better than others.

Including soft coral tanks, which I though you indicated might not be "crashed" by elevated phosphate and/or nitrate?

OK, nevermind, you did read it, you just didn't get it. Go back to the beginning and read the difference between some corals tolerating it better. Then read my definion of what I think "crash" means.

What do you think it does that's bad?

You didn't read that paper I sent you on metal eating bacteria at all, did you?

I don't understand the question. All natural environments have water soluble phosphorus.

I hope so.

Something else be limiting?

Nitrogen and iron can easily be limiting in natural and reef environments. So could other things, possibly, if these are all available. Or phosphate can be limiting. Or growth isn't nutrient limited at all, but rather by light/space/predation/etc.

I do not presume that phosphorus is limiting in all aquaria. You do seem to conclude that.

No I'm not. For some reason something that's very easy for me to understand is very hard for me to explain to you in a way that you understand.(Remember the hard time you had getting me to understand something chemistry one time?) P doesn't need N and Fe to work and be sunk by bacteria. It needs N if it's floating around. If N is limiting, the P will float around and build up. Cyano and a lot of other bacteria fix N from atmospheric N, especially sediment (not shrimp poop ) bacteria. Because of those bacteria, N takes very special conditions to be limiting.
  #107  
Old 08/17/2004, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of deep sand beds all that much,
I'll make a deal. You tutor me on chemistry and I'll tutor you on microbiology and pathology.

Here's the deal. In the past year, I've made myself available to be called names - some not allowed by the UA of this forum, made fun of, misquoted, challenged, debated, you name it.

But not one single person has presented one single scientific paper proving anything that I've said was wrong. IN OVER A YEAR


I've always been open to anything anyone wants to post - show me the proof. Show me a scientific - not hobby - paper that says anything different than I'm saying.
  #108  
Old 08/17/2004, 04:31 PM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
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Are we just talking phosphorus, or do you include nitrogen, metals, etc,?

There you go again. LOL Tell you what 'BUY MORE SNAILS'. What you missed was the post about some corals tolerating elevated P better than others.


IF you were to say that you believed that (or allowed for the possibility of)something besides phosphorus being the culprit, I might be a lot less inclined to dispute the mechanism.

H2S, for example, seems like a very good candidate to me.

It might chronically leak and reduce the health of a reef aquarium, with more and more leaking over time as the tank and sand bed aged.

It might also acutely come out in large quantities if something (maybe something even unseen) disturbed the sand bed, causing an immediate "crash".

Algae may not be particularly harmed by H2S, while other organims (e.g., corals) may be.

H2S is one of the few things that can clearly be made in a sand bed in far higher concentrations that would occur in the water column or in systems wiuthout sand beds.

Why do you not think it a possible cause?
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  #109  
Old 08/17/2004, 04:39 PM
wasp9166 wasp9166 is offline
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next time ill sell tickets one thing i havent seen mentioned, ok , you think your sandbed is the cause of your tanks decline, you decide to "take it out", can somone tell me how this is done without wiping out everything in the tank in the first place? once you disturb it wouldnt you release everything that it was supposedly going to release anyway?
  #110  
Old 08/17/2004, 04:40 PM
photobarry photobarry is offline
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I keep a Riftia refugium to take care of excess sulfide in my tank.

I am sure that H2S may be responisble for some tank problems, especially when old sandbeds are accidentally disturbed. But H2S is an unlikely culprit if the mechanism is slow release from the sand. It is so reactive with O2 that very little will make it far from the bottom of the tank. I spend most of my time beating my head against the wall trying to get the 2 to coexist so we can keep our animals alive at work. All the bacteria that love that mixture don't help things either.
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  #111  
Old 08/17/2004, 04:54 PM
Bomber Bomber is offline
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Are we just talking phosphorus, or do you include nitrogen, metals, etc,?

You mean in a "crash". Nitrogen and metals would fall into the category of poison. Ammonia poisoning, copper poisoning. I know, I know - it's a fine line. But it is what it is. You can dump P into the system and it won't have the same effect as ammonia or copper.

IF you were to say that you believed that (or allowed for the possibility of)something besides phosphorus being the culprit, I might be a lot less inclined to dispute the mechanism.

Sheesh, the next weekend we both have off, I'm spending it teaching you about bacteria. You do know that P inhibits calcification, right? just establishing a base line so I know where to start.

H2S, for example, seems like a very good candidate to me.
It might chronically leak and reduce the health of a reef aquarium, with more and more leaking over time as the tank and sand bed aged.
It might also acutely come out in large quantities if something (maybe something even unseen) disturbed the sand bed, causing an immediate "crash".

yep, but you'd smell it way before it had any effect on your tank. Actually you and the tank would be living here with me by now.

Algae may not be particularly harmed by H2S, while other organims (e.g., corals) may be.

True. I would think a acid running around in the tank with all the pH meters in use today, someone would have made a connection by now though. I know it's not a problem in nature, at least not until there's a problem with P first.
Back to the sulfite/sulfur reducing bacteria again. Do you know how H2S is made by bacteria?
  #112  
Old 08/17/2004, 05:05 PM
Atoller Atoller is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by photobarry
I keep a Riftia refugium to take care of excess sulfide in my tank.

  #113  
Old 08/17/2004, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by wasp9166
next time ill sell tickets one thing i havent seen mentioned, ok , you think your sandbed is the cause of your tanks decline, you decide to "take it out", can somone tell me how this is done without wiping out everything in the tank in the first place? once you disturb it wouldnt you release everything that it was supposedly going to release anyway?
Real quick.

I siphoned all the water out, took all the rocks out, borrowed a NewHolland front end loader - 10ft tank - took it out. Rinsed rocks off, put them back, filled up with water, put critters back.
  #114  
Old 08/17/2004, 06:59 PM
Muttling Muttling is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
[B]Gee I don't know, what do you think has happened when bays, lagoons, aquatic environments stop thriving after a number of years?

So if we suck all sand off the bottom of the ocean, all eutrophication concerns would disappear?
OMG......you mean mother nature has it all wrong is bent on self destruction? We MUST save her from herself, she doesn't know what she's doing. ONLY WE UNDERSTAND WHAT IT TAKES FOR LIFE TO SUCCEED!!!!!!!!!!!

Just think, all the natural water bodies of the entire planet are in total peril because mother nature has no clue how to make life. (It couldn't have anything to do with man made run off issues as Bomber discusses on one the first page of that thread he linked........I didn't read any of the other pages, but I did note that part.)
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  #115  
Old 08/17/2004, 09:15 PM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
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You do know that P inhibits calcification, right?



I quite agree that elevated phospahte is a quite undesirable thing for calcifying corals.

So if we could show that sand beds lead to elevated phosphate in a normal aquarium with other normal export mechanisms, then we could black list sand beds. If it only elevates phosphate in aquaria not employing other export methods, then it's a grey list. If it doesn't usually lead to elevated water column phosphate levels, compared to the same tank without any sand, then we've got the green light for sand.
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  #116  
Old 08/17/2004, 09:19 PM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
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Do you know how H2S is made by bacteria?

I'm sure you'll tell me if you have a different idea , but my understanding is that it comes from:

1. The anaerobic degradation of sulfur-containing organics

and

2. The use of sulfate as an oxygen source for anaerobic degradation of organics

The importance of that to phosphate release from sand beds is what?
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  #117  
Old 08/17/2004, 09:21 PM
photobarry photobarry is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
If it doesn't usually lead to elevated water column phosphate levels, compared to the same tank without any sand, then we've got the green light for sand.
Then what good is the sand? (I just had to beat Bomber & Gregt and say this first. )
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  #118  
Old 08/17/2004, 09:31 PM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
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I've never suggested sand as a way to reduce phosphate. It's there for NITRATE, guys.

FWIW, I don't think it does anything in my refugium because IMO the macroalgae gets the nitrogen and phosphorus.
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  #119  
Old 08/17/2004, 09:38 PM
photobarry photobarry is offline
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I knew you would say that! ROTFL It does help with that.
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  #120  
Old 08/18/2004, 01:07 AM
DonJasper DonJasper is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by hillrc91
DonJasper:

I think I've gotten all the answers that I need... Perhaps my DSB will crash someday ---But not today... My nitrates dropped another 4ppm when I tested yesterday.
PS: Uh oh - you messed up big time guy. No numbers allowed in reef keeping debates. My theory? Too many scientists and not enough engineers!

The only way this doesn't become an engineering problem is if becomes necessary that a DSB must 'crash'. No one seems to want to claim that. So near as I can figure is that reef tanks with DSB's run by untrained amateur operators sometimes have DSB problems. And we’re left guessing what the risks are.

And that I guess, despite my initial skepticism, it is (for all practical purposes) an untestable hypothesis.

I like the idea of a multi-year 'DSB crash'. Since Randy likes dictionaries:
Main Entry: 1crash
Pronunciation: 'krash
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English crasschen
transitive senses
1 a : to break violently and noisily : SMASH b : to damage (an airplane) in landing
2 a : to cause to make a loud noise b : to force (as one's way) through with loud crashing noises
3 : to enter or attend without invitation or without paying
intransitive senses
1 a : to break or go to pieces with or as if with violence and noise b : to fall, land, or hit with destructive force c : to decline suddenly and steeply d of a computer system or program : to suffer a sudden major failure usually with attendant loss of data
2 : to make a smashing noise
3 : to move or force one's way with or as if with a crash
4 slang : to experience the aftereffects (as dysphoria or depression) of drug intoxication
5 slang : to go to bed or fall asleep; also : to reside temporarily
  #121  
Old 08/18/2004, 01:17 AM
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I am giving myself one post point for reading this entire thread!

It was getting ugly. I think...almost makes me want to quit. Someday I am going to come home and see the $10K investment sitting in my living room all curled up and dead...why...because remember guys...90% of us (read my sig) have no idea what is going on in our DSBs. I know I tested for PO4...got zero...I am done. I guess ignorance is bliss...at least it sounds like I have 3-5 years to figure out what I am doing...maybe by then there will be a little stick you can poke in your sand bed and it will tell you how much time you have left. You guys are smart...invent that.
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  #122  
Old 08/18/2004, 05:22 AM
DonJasper DonJasper is offline
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Parting shot:
I don't think I need to post about this whole DSB controversy again (yippeee!)

Ah hem:
I think the movie "Contact" is one of the best movies ever made. I really love that last scene where Jody Foster is being grilled by the politicians.

Quote:
Originally posted by Habib
IMO Jerel (Bomber) has enough real world data to support most of what he is saying.
Just for the record, I agree.

Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
can you provide a link to an exact post that shows data supporting the idea that a sand bed lead to an actual crash of an actual reef tank?


Quote:
Originally posted by Bomber
I think this is the crux, so to speak.

For one thing, I'm not going to write grants or hand out money to someone for the specific purpose of studying aquariums. Why is that? Because there are literally millions of aquariums already in use - we call them MODELS.
In the process of studying these different environments there is a certain amount that is done "on site", the bulk of the work is done on dry land using MODELS.
Boomer is probably right. But I'm being asked to accept his conclusion on faith?

** Ya know movie impressions just don't come across on these forums very well.
  #123  
Old 08/18/2004, 06:08 AM
MiddletonMark MiddletonMark is offline
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Don, didn't Randy define `crash' here in a way that most people agree with? Is there a need to go to the dictionary, when it doesn't have anything to do with reefing?

I thought we solved this a page ago or more?

Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Instead of the inflammatory words like "crash", I think that perhaps this is a compromise statement that many of us could agree with:

"A sand bed will initially act as a sink for nutrients, both nitrogen and, to a smaller extent, phosphorus. That in itself is not a problem, and serves to keep the nutrient levels lower in the water column. After some period of time, the sand may begin to no longer be a sink for phosphorus. In some cases, about which we may debate the likelihood of it taking place in a typical reef aquarium, and under what conditions, the sand bed may even become a source of phosphorus. If the aquarium is unable to handle the phosphorus in other ways, and if it contains inhabitants susceptible to stress from elevated phosphorus (such as many calcifying corals and coralline algae), it may begin to decline in overall health."
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  #124  
Old 08/18/2004, 07:46 AM
hillrc91 hillrc91 is offline
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Let the debate rage about the bio-chemical processes that take place inside DSB's. --But the answers to the fundamental questions that average aquarists (like myself) would ask are already answered.

1. Can a DSB be used to complete the nitrogen cycle? Yes. My DSB is living proof of that. Are their other methods available? Yes.

2. Have average aquarists and experts alike used the DSB method safely over a long period of time? Yes.

3. Can system crashes be conclusively attributed to the failure of DSB's? Not Yet.

Meanwhile, as the debate rages on about nutrient sinks, phosphate levels, and runoff, my nitrates continue to drop, thanks to a DSB, just like I was told that they would.
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  #125  
Old 08/18/2004, 07:51 AM
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You guys certainly like to get carried away, don't you? I've never said no sandbeds under any conditions.

For one thing, maybe we need to define what eutrophic really means.
""Having waters rich in mineral and organic nutrients that promote a proliferation of plant life, especially algae.""

It does not mean a "dead zone". When a area goes eutrophic, there is still plenty of life there. It's just that the life that's sensitive to phosphates is either dead or long gone. You still have crabs, starfish, anemones, some sponges, and some types of corals, etc - anything that's not bothered or will tolerate it. You can even set up a "eutrophic" aquarium - which a lot of you have - and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Mushrooms, leather corals, some anemones, etc - a beautiful eutrophic tank.

The only problem is, when you get into housing things that will not tolerate eutrophic conditions, like reef building hard corals, some sponges, gorgonians, etc. They will not tolerate eutrophic conditions in the wild and they will not tolerate eutrophic conditions in a aquarium either.
 

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