Interceptor question

[Bomber]

Group hug!

[photobarry]

ROTFL Us dweebs need to stick together!

[Bomber]

Who wants to do this?

I need someone to glean a tox study on "adult" corals for chlorpyrifos. (I don't care if they have chitin or not, we won't treat those. )

Boom, this is usually right up your alley. Tell me what you find and I'll tell you what I found.

It's dursban, OTC. I only need to compare toxies to try and figure out a dosage.

[ScottT1980]

I know that dursban has largely been removed from clinical use (this is in the canine model of course) because of its toxicty? Of course, perhaps that is the point of an invert tox study...

As for the Interceptor question, I can try to ask some of the invert and aquatic vets that I know here at the NCSU-CVM. Perhaps they are familiar...

Take er easy
Scott T.

[Bomber]

Scott,

We need to pick a pesticide that's already had tox studies done on it, and one that's OTC.

Otherwise, we're going to have to start from square one.

Dursban has been used and studied a lot and it fits the profile of one that would work.

[ScottT1980]

Sounds cool, best of luck with it!

[AcroSteve]

I have a ? about the shelf life of this.

Obviously, it is affected by different storage conditions, but here goes.

My package has a expiration date of 2007. Obviously, it should be good until then in an unopened blister pack.

If I open one and measure out some doses, how long would that remain good?

I was thinking of measuring out several 5 or 10 gallon doses to have on hand for QT type applications.

Package says to store at room temp. What storage method would provide the longest shelf life of the smaller qty?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't know how exposure to O2 and water from the air will impact the shelf life.

[AcroSteve]

Good to know that.

Now, is there any reason it could not be used at the same time as a flatworm exit treatment? Other than the treatment time I suppose. This is highly dependant on the FW load in the tank and is probably beyond the scope of this thread to get into too much detail. But assume there is no problem with the flatworm toxins and only include factors related to the two drugs or treatments. So could there be any adverse interactions?

This would save time, carbon and salt.

[otolith]

acrosteve, I plan on storing it in a small sample prescription bottle with a dessicant pack to help keep moisture out of it.

Would probably recommend against treating both at the same time. FWIW, my flatworms just kind of disappeared with frequent blasting of the rocks/sand bed with a powerhead. Not sure if an increased water temp had any bearing on it, but they kind of disappeared.

Derek

[Boomer]

Jer

You must have seen this;

Using coral larvae reared from the spawning events, bioassays were performed using metamorphic induction as the test of effect of the organophosphate pesticide chlorpyrifos and the polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon (PAH) fluoranthene. Chlorpyrifos was found to inhibit settlement and metamorphosis (recruitment) of larvae of the coral Goniastrea retiformis in some assays at levels as low as 5 parts per billion (ppb) when the preferred substrata were exposed as well as when larvae were exposed and subsequently offered unexposed substrata. Inconsistencies among replicated experiments indicated a need for further experimentation and control of the concentration of inducer available to larvae in such assays. Fluoranthene was found to affect metamorphic induction/recruitment of Acropora wardii larvae at levels of 50 ppb. The results of these experiments confirmed our concern that different life history stages exhibit differential sensitivities to potential pollutants, and that LC50 - 96 assays performed on adult corals are nonpredictive. Both chlorpyrifos and fluoranthene were found to have no effect on adult colonies of the coral Pocillpora damicornis at levels several orders of magnitude higher than those found to affect larval recruitment. Ecologically, 100 percent survivorship of adults and/or larvae, but 0 percent recruitment is equivalent to 100 percent mortality in terms of reef replenishment.

and

Ward S, Arthington AH, Pusey BJ (1995) The effects of a chronic application of chlorpyrifos on the macroinvertebrate fauna in an outdoor artificial stream system: species responses. Ecotoxicology and Environmental Safety 30: 2-23.



I must have missed this

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...02/feature.htm


I didn't find much on corals but things like the effects this stuff has on any aquatic life, being that it is a Cholinesterases inhibitor, bothers me. I would worry about how it changes with pH, temp and salinity. And when we say corals we left something out, how would it affect the Zooxanthellae?

I forgot the other gazillion names for it

00253 (CA DPR Chem Code) , 059101 (US EPA PC Code) , 253 (CA DPR Chem Code) , 2921-88-2 (CAS Number) , 2921882 , 2921882 (CAS Number) , Brodan , Chloorpyrifos , Chlopyrifos , Chloropyrifos , Chlorpyrifos , Chlorpyrifos (ANSI) , Chlorpyrifos-ethyl , Chlorpyriphos , chlorpyriphos-ethyl , Chorlpyrifos , Clorpirifos , Detmol U.A. , Dowco 179 , Dursban , Dursban 4E , Dursban F , Dursban HF , Dursbank 6 (059101+069001+063501+067501+057001) , ENT 27311 , Eradex , Killmaster , Kl—rpirifosz , Lorsban , O,O-Diethyl O-(3,5,6-trichloro-2-pyridyl) phosphorothioate , O,O-Diethyl-O-(3,5,6-trichloro-2-pyridinyl) phosphorothioate , OMS 971 , Phosphorothioic acid, O,O-diethyl O-(3,5,6-trichloro-2-pyridyl) ester , Pyrindol, 3,5,6-trichloro-, O-ester with O,O-diethyl phosphorothioate , Pyrinex , Super I.Q.A.P.T. , Trichlorpyrphos

And it appears to me it will pretty much take out your meiofauna. Organophosphates don't belong in any reef tanks. If anything the corals in quarantine with the stuff....... MAYBE

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Good to know that.

No, I meant that I don't know the extent that it will, not that I didn't think it would.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Boomer
Jer
You must have seen this;
Ecologically, 100 percent survivorship of adults b]
how would it affect the Zooxanthellae?

Yep, it crossed my desk.

Remember, we don't care about babies.

I'm working on it's effects, if any, and at what levels on dinos, algae, plants, etc. I'm pretty sure we can "guess" from that. Corrie remembers something on this with ag. runoff and red tide. I have her looking for it.

Keep in mind how this stuff is designed to work, on plants, and on insects.

[ScottT1980]

I am a bit new to this whole interceptor issue in the reef aquarium but I was wondering if anyone has experimented with lufenuron (program)? One of the invert vets that I talked to tonight mentioned that he would certainly reccomend trying this over interceptor because it is a chitin inhibitor and much less toxic

Not trying to hijaack the thread by any means, just thought I would pose the question...

Take er easy
Scott T.

[Bomber]

Has anyone put a ID on these "red bugs"?

[EricHugo]

Bomber - I have sent samples out to two bug experts. It may be awhile, but we will have a formal description when they are finished.

My weekend experience consisted of using 100ml of tank water with each of six pilot trials and very small infested fragments to see if any were worth further and better tests.

1. 0.5g Boric acid mixed into the seawater for 10 minutes
2. Epsom Salt mixed to 35ppt for five minutes
3. 0.5 g Epsom salts for ten minutes
4. About 1/4 teaspoon permethrin product (Rid, Nix) in seawater for five minutes
5. Hydrogen peroxide - 1 capful for ten minutes
6. full strength hydrogen peroxide for one minute.

Questions - does it kill the amphipods and does it kill the coral

At first, it seemed as though the permethrin and the full trength short H2O2 were the best, but four days later, both H2O2 treatments have really wrecked the corals. The Boric Acid was the most heavily infested, and the treatment seemed to cause the bugs to remain attached but most dead. The coral tolerated this well, but some bugs still remain. It definitely knocked out a lot of them. The epsom salts are somewhat effective, but some bugs still remain and coral seems stressed. The big surprise was the permethrin. After reading the ingredients of the product, I thought this could be basically flea spray. Also, the surfactants gave me pause, but soap immobilizes and kills fleas pretty well, although generally has a bad effect on corals, too. As it turned out, the fragments dipped in the product tolerated the product well and killed all the amphipods.

So, this week we are going to expand the boric acid and permethrin treatments to be a little more controlled and varying the times and concentrations on a number of species.

It's not that I don't like the idea of Interceptor. I don't like the idea of treating tanks, and if it reallyis effecttive, this means it is also effective against all the other small crustaceans, and being an antihelminth, also make me wonder about its effect on polychaetes etc. Now, quarantine treatment is a different subject.

Finally, as mentioned, the reason that some of us are standing up and paying atttention is as mentioned...just because some group of hobbyists yell fire, doesn't mean its really a fire. I'm sure I could list a couple hundred similar "myths" that turned out to be nothing. And, we don;t all have time to just drop everything in our lives and launch into background research and trials everytime there might be a problem. In fact, if this didn't show some importance to the hobby because of frag trading and they were just an occasional but unidentified symbont, like a specialized nudibranch, I still wouldn't care too much. Also, it takes some personal experience with them to draw any sort of postulates about them. No offense, but hearing reports third or fourth hand from John who said Frank who said "Sally's husband had them in the tank and they killed everything" makes me wince rather than be curious. So, if I might join in the group hug, it sure would feel good. Alternately, I guess, we can all just go away and forget about it since we are so slow on the draw. ;-)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Eric:


Interesting tests!

The epsom salts are somewhat effective, but some bugs still remain and coral seems stressed.

How did you make 35 ppt Epsom Salts?

0.5g Boric acid mixed into the seawater for 10 minutes

Do you know the final pH of that solution?

[marinebetta]

Originally posted by ScottT1980
I am a bit new to this whole interceptor issue in the reef aquarium but I was wondering if anyone has experimented with lufenuron (program)? One of the invert vets that I talked to tonight mentioned that he would certainly reccomend trying this over interceptor because it is a chitin inhibitor and much less toxic

Not trying to hijaack the thread by any means, just thought I would pose the question...

Take er easy
Scott T.

Just happened to surf into this thread....

After going through all 3 pages, I have to agree with Scott...why use interceptor (and avermectin) or organophosphates in your tank?

OPs are know to have a host of effects and the possibility of accidental toxicity (overdosage) is quite high.

Avermectins act on GABA receptors and essentially paralyse lower order organisms (insects, nematodes, etc) but can possibly cross the blood brain barrier into higher vertebrates (eg you can't use them with 100% safety in tortoises, or some species of dogs..for that matter) Seems to be safe enough in fish but other critters in our reef tanks???

Program (lufenuron) is essentially 100% safe as it is a chitin inhibitor and will only affect organisms that have a chitin exoskeleton - kills them during their moult and causes developmental abnormalities in their eggs. Sure...you'll have to make sure you don't have any ornamental crustaceans too, as they will be affected (come to think of it, sounds like a good way to get rid of those pesky mantises and crabs in new liverock! ).

Dimilin is a sister compound to program and both have been used successfully in freshwater fish application to eliminate crustacean parasites.

I would think these 2 compounds would be much safer.....

[Bomber]

Originally posted by marinebetta
OPs are know to have a host of effects and the possibility of accidental toxicity (overdosage) is quite high.

Avermectins act on GABA receptors and essentially paralyse lower order organisms (insects, nematodes, etc) but can possibly cross the blood brain barrier into higher vertebrates (eg you can't use them with 100% safety in tortoises, or some species of dogs..for that matter) Seems to be safe enough in fish but other critters in our reef tanks???

MB just so we're clear on the concept. I have no hope of finding anything that could be used to treat a entire, intact reef tank. I'm only looking for something that could be used as a dip or bath.
Corals don't have that network.

Originally posted by marinebetta
Program (lufenuron) is essentially 100% safe as it is a chitin inhibitor and will only affect organisms that have a chitin exoskeleton - kills them during their moult and causes developmental abnormalities in their eggs.

That's the problem, we need something that works faster. Think along the lines of "wasp spray".

[photobarry]

Originally posted by Bomber
That's the problem, we need something that works faster. Think along the lines of "wasp spray".

Whatever you come up with, I have one request. Make sure it smells nice!

[photobarry]

Originally posted by EricHugo
So, if I might join in the group hug, it sure would feel good.

LOL I missed that the first time I read through it.

[marinebetta]

Ahh...OK, got it - looking for a preventative dip type thing. Yup, for that you need bug spray

Back to the ole OPs then - perhaps neguvon or masoten will work. (Again, out of the FW experience with crustacean parasites.....)

[SeanT]

Originally posted by Bomber
MB just so we're clear on the concept. I have no hope of finding anything that could be used to treat a entire, intact reef tank.

Well in your travels if you discover the least harmful chemical to treat a whole tank, be sure to share.

[JB NY]

Originally posted by Bomber
MB just so we're clear on the concept. I have no hope of finding anything that could be used to treat a entire, intact reef tank. I'm only looking for something that could be used as a dip or bath.

The biggest problem with not finding a way to treat the whole tank is, lots of people have large established reefs with corals encrusted all over the rockwork. They only way to get these infected corals bug free is to treat the tank, or tear the tank down in an effort to remove all the corals to a quarantine environment.

I feel if only a dip solution is found, people will still use the interceptor method.

[3_high_low]

Originally posted by EricHugo
Starting today, I am starting to get some information on the life-history, behavioral, and other types of questions mentioned above. That way, hopefully, it will provide some information on the neccesity of treating tanks versus dealing with it like other parasites (fleas) where if you isolate hosts and wait through a life cycle you are clear. Ideally, the bugs would direct develop on their host, and be highly host-specific (like only some Acropora) and then a targeted dip-type chemical could be used (Bomber, yes it does seem that organophosphates are the most effective form what I have gleaned, too, but agree that they are not benign to corals and soem corals do incorporate chitin (e.g. the pocilloporids)

remark#1: Has anyone claiming to have seen them on the rock really seen them and identified them because there is at least one other look-alike species.

remark #2: They are harmful. For sure. And, they will abandon (or nearly abandon) and near-dead host, allow recovery, and then return again.

Boomer: great links. And here I have been searching academic and aquaculture databases.

Interesting what I am observing in all Pocilloporids in my tank, post Interceptor treatment.

Thread in SPS forum:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=370719

Can anyone expand on the comment that I enboldened (is that a word?lol) in Eric's post vs my observations?