Azno3

[melev]

I bet this has never been discussed in this forum.

Aaanyway, I dosed my tank for the first time today. My reef's nitrates are around 50 to 60ppm. I decided to go with 300g liquid volume, and dosed 10 drops.

Can't wait to watch the magic.

[JESUS VILLASEÑO]

there are many ways to keep nitrates down. this product has its drawbacks. keep a good aquarium husbandry in your tank

[melev]

I completely agree, and thought my nitrates were much lower.

What are the drawbacks that you are aware of?

[doonan75]

Doesn't work. At least not for me but the sulphur worked like a charm once it cycled.

[Percula9]

Didn't work for me either, just clouded the water. Get a refugium.

[TOURKID]

are you serious? AZNO3 is AMAZING.

Keep an eye on your skimmer, in a few days it will be in major overdrive.

Ive used it 2 times.(two diff tanks) and I followed the directions exactly with great sucess.

I never had to use it agian either. btw nitrates stayed low. (i also somehow managed to not overfeed so often )

[melev]

Percula9, I have a 29g refugium on my 280g reef.

Tourkid, I'm glad to hear you had good success. I plan to follow the directions very carefully.

I have a Euro-reef 12-2, and am sure it is up to the task, and I appreciate the warning that it'll start pulling out more.

[mysterybox]

I would dose 1/2 of what is suggested at 1/2 the pace. I have used this product (and occasionally still do!), but it works too good, too fast.

[melev]

Originally posted by mysterybox
I would dose 1/2 of what is suggested at 1/2 the pace. I have used this product (and occasionally still do!), but it works too good, too fast.

That is what I was originally planning, to err on the side of caution. After I dosed 10 drops today, I thought "That's it?! That's going to make a difference?!"

I read the ingredients, but it doesn't really mean much to me. Anyone know how it works, in layman's terms? Is it adding new denitrifying bacteria to the system to eat up the nitrates?

Where the heck is Boomer when I need him?

[Billybeau1]

Marc, this product can work but must have a good functioning skimmer.

We do not know whats in it either, but it is suppose to convert the nitrate to something that is skimmable and the skimmer takes it out.

From my experience this stuff works with low levels of nitrates but won't do a thing for tanks with high trates.

The first time I used it, my trates were about 80 and after a 30 day treatment, they were still 80.

But many reefers who started out with lower levels saw great results. It will temperarily lower the oxygen level in the tank so keep an eye on your livestock.

Let us know how it works. Slowly ramp up like the directions say and slowly back off towards the end of the 30 day treatment.

The AZNO3 we are buying today is suppose to be new and improved. I tried it again a month ago or so and it still didn't work for me.

[melev]

So what did you do to lower your 80ppm nitrates? Tons of water changes?

[Billybeau1]

Well, Marc this may surprise you but my trates are currently at about 120 ppm

You see I have a fish only tank so I don't sweat it much. My fish are happy and healthy.

[melev]

Ah. Well, I don't have that luxury, because I keep adding corals to my FO tank. So far, they haven't complained about the clutter.

Recent picture 9/20/07:

[reefwisher]

My nitrates were up at around 80 ppm. My very smart lfs manager told me to first back off the feeding the fish to every other day,feed the corals once a week with my phytoplan or even once every 2 weeks. Do 30% water change once a week harvest the chaeto to the size of a softball when needed by the way I have a 40 Gal. breeder tank with a refugium of 10 Gal. After doing this my nitrates are at about 30 ppm and I have been doing this for about a month now. so this is working great for me oh and by the way thank for your article on the refugium light, I bought the 5700K and the chaeto is growing so fast that it a weekly harvest. Great light and will be buying more. I hope this method will work for you on your nitrates .

[Billybeau1]

Very Nice FO tank Marc.

[isjg]

Don't have the exact info with me, but from memory the ingredients were amylase treated massecuite and cosymase or some enzyme like that. Basically sugar and enzymes in a bottle. There's a lot of research around that found bacterial glycolysis can be limited by insufficient enzymes and vitamins. By adding the vitamins and enzymes the bacteria can better utilise the sugar and multiply faster.

[cayars]

melev, the ingredient label is, well, meaningless. They basically used a whole bunch of "fancy" words to say sugar water and enzymes" as isjg suggested.

I've done a lot of experimenting to try and reproduce how this works and can get close but not as good as what they have. I used 10 10g tanks for about 4 months trying different things.

They are on to something no doubt. While it works and works well I'm not sure it better then alternatives because of how fast it actually does work (to fast on small tanks).

You can get the same affect using the vodka/sugar method with possible a dose of Bio-Spira marine thrown it to restock bacteria (probably not needed).

The key to either approach AZNO3/Vokda is to go slow and ramp up slowly. Far to many people dose to much of either get blooms. Some of the people I've helped with AZNO3 didn't get the nitrates lowered at recommended levels (> 100ppm/reef) but I asked them to add a little bit more and continue dosing (following the same schedule of increasing amounts) and sure enough the nitrates lowered.

It's also key to lower the amounts slowly and continue to watch the nitrates to make sure they don't rise.

With either approach keep an eye on pH and Alk and O2 if possible. Definitely watch the livestock for any stress which usually won't be a problem if you go slow. Yellow Tangs have been the biggest trouble fish to date that I'm aware of with either approach but especially the AZNO2 but that was mainly a couple product revisions back.

Right now your reef has gotten used to having 80 ppm (regardless of if it's heathy or not) so go slow in reducing them. Don't do it overnight. I think many people get into trouble trying to do large water changes that 1/2 the nitrates. It's better in my opinion to do a series of 10% water changes every few days then a large one even when trying to reduce high nitrates.

Carlo

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

Originally posted by isjg
... Basically sugar and enzymes in a bottle. ...

We have a winner.

"Massecuite" is a sugar industry term for a sugar-molasses mixture. Cozymase is best known as a co-enzyme involved in fermentation (among other things).

FWIW, molasses-based carbon dosing has been utilized in Asian aquaculture for decades. Cozymase has been used in septic and wastewater applications for almost as long.

Non-layman background may be found here:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...0#post10540060


HTH

[jdieck]

Originally posted by mesocosm
Greetings All !
Cozymase has been used in septic and wastewater applications for almost as long.
HTH

So what you are saying is that Marc and Billy might have a sewer of an aquarium?

Sorry, could not resist....

Using the words of our most venerated benefactor .....
"There are many ways to reduce nitrate, including reducing the aquarium's nitrogen inputs, increasing nitrogen export by skimming, increasing nitrogen export by growing and harvesting macroalgae or turf algae (or any other organism of your choice), using a deep sand bed, removing existing filters designed to facilitate the nitrogen cycle, using a carbon denitrator, using a sulfur denitrator, using AZ-NO3, using nitrate absorbing solids, and using polymers and carbon that bind organics.

Some aquarists add organic compounds (e.g., alcohol as in vodka, sugar, etc.) to drive bacterial growth as another option for reducing nitrate and phosphate. This may be the process by which AZ-NO3 works, as well. This bacterial growth process generally works well. It is also very inexpensive and may benefit the aquarium in other ways, such as providing a food source for certain organisms. Its drawbacks are that it is possible to drive the nutrient levels too low, and that it consumes oxygen as the bacteria use the added organics as a carbon source."

[melev]

Thank you all for your input. I guess I should have known all the people would chime in on Sunday morning.

Yeah, my FO is a sewer.

My tank has a DSB, 29g refugium, huge Euro-reef skimmer (12" body, 30" tall), Calcium reactor. No pads, bioballs, biowheels, bio-anything.

I'll export some macro this week.

Anyone have an opinion on doing water changes while dosing this product? Normally I change 55g at a time. 30g sounds easier, for some reason.

[Boomer]

I'm right here Marc

I told you at MACNA get giant fish out of FOT/reef tank And try AZ-NO3 or Vodka and start out in very small dosages and slowly raise them I would look strongly at Billy's and Carlo's suggestions but disagree on 10 WC. There is nothing wrong with large WC, some of us have done 90% but you need to make sure all your water parameters are in line. When I did them I always used a Vortex with diatom powder cake with a second layer of PAC to pick up anything rising form the bottom due to WC turbulence. Having high NO3- and lowering them quickly has no bearing on anything and is a old myth. It is the import water parameters that are the issue, pH, Alk, Ca++, Mg++, temp and Salinity. Those that have the largest effects on kinetics and I would also throw in PO4.

Marc how deep is that ESB ?

[melev]

4", max.

I don't have a diatom filter. What is PAC? (something Activated Carbon?)

Sandy Shoupe spoke to our club in January, and seemed to be a fan of detritus in the sump where all kinds of neat critters live and breed, but I tend to believe this needs to be extracted to avoid decay and NO3 issues. What do you think?

[cayars]

Originally posted by Boomer
I'm right here Marc

Having high NO3- and lowering them quickly has no bearing on anything and is a old myth.

Not exactly true Boomer, but let me explain. Some types of bacteria, phytoplankton and macroalgae are using the nitrates as food. There will probably also be some undesirable organisms in the tank due to the higher nitrates like algae and dinoflagellates which will die off quickly if the nitrates are lowered quickly.

So changing this level fast wipes out their food source and a quick die-off can contribute to other problems which aren't easy to identify.

Had the corals looked stressed or showed other problems I wouldn't have mentioned the slower rate of reduction and would definitely agree to get it lower quicker as that would be the "best bet" in that situation.

Depending on the types of corals in his tank, some of them may be using the nitrates to there advantage and would suffer from a sudden decrease in the nitrate level.

I took a quick look through one of Randy's articles and he covers some affects of calcification on corals with high nitrates in his article http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2003/chem.htm
Drop down to the section "Effects of Elevated Nitrate in Aquaria". In that study the nitrate levels were pretty small but in other articles I've read on the same type of thing with very high levels of nitrates not bothering the corals as long as the alkalinity is kept high.

In that section Randy mentions "One explanation is that the elevated nitrate drives the growth of the zooxanthellae to such an extent that it actually competes with the host for inorganic carbon (used in photosynthesis and skeletal deposition). When the alkalinity is elevated, this competition no longer deprives the host of needed carbon".

I hadn't really thought of that before but the sudden shift in nitrates could also stress out some of the corals as they have to adjust the amount of zooxanthellae too.

Part of the comment on the WC was also from personal experience with AZNO3 and rapid depletion of nitrates where the corals looked worse for a period of time right after the rapid reduction then they did with the high nitrates.

Since his reef doesn't look like it's being obviously bothered by the nitrates at the moment, I didn't see the point in rapidly reducing them. I felt a slower reduction pace would be better.

I'm not a fan of big water changes either so that also explains the comment. I'm more of a believer in lowering nutrient problems slowly to not stress the tank as a whole and allow the tank to adjust to the lowering levels. This approach is of course personal thing and people feel differently about it.

Carlo

[DrBegalke]

I used AZNO3 on my 55 g, as directed... Took my nitrates from 40 to <5 ...

[isjg]

Ok, here's some more info on AZNO3 -

"The activating ingredient in our product is Cozymase (a group of dormant, very hardy enzymes termed dehydrogenases) which function in the oxidation of proteins and of many other compounds important in the intermediary metabolism and the resulting active enzyme Maltase in the aquarium. The bulk of the product (Massecuite), like the bulk portion of a seed, is merely food for both the Cozymase to develop and the Maltase to thrive. The description of the Massecuite is the manufacturing process that renders the product distasteful to detrimental enzymes thus inhibiting their development and growth."