ReefKeeping Mag Goniopora Article Review

[John Kelly]

I have been seriously thinking about this article over the last few days.......since RK magazine is not a peer-reviewed journal, I'll post my thoughts here.


To be fair, Justin who wrote the article appears to have been working with goniopora fragments for some time. No telling how many have died; but obviously he has had some success with keeping them alive. It is good work. He has utilized the deep sand bed method/no skimmer method while dosing phytoplankton to the tank.

99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements, on the other hand, have come from 2 people. JenNKerry at www.reefcraze.com (using Liquid Life Marine Plankton. site published in April) and myself at www.goniopora.org (utilizing the "stew" of mashed cyclopeeze and a number of other foods. site published in July). Both of us commenced these experiments at the beginning of Feburary of this year (2005), both of us have made literally hundreds of posts about our methods here at ReefCentral, and both of us are proving the positive results that come from target feeding Goniopora. When Jen and Kerry posted a thread announcing their experiment, which I posted to also, it was met with so much controversy that the thread was closed. Now, ReefKeeping magazine (reefcentral) has an article about Goniopora Care and Propagation?

Credit needs to be given where credit is due.

[greenbean36191]

He beat you to publishing in RK. It happens in the research world all the time and there really isn't much anyone can do. If he's been doing the same type of work and he beats you to publishing it in RK then as long as he didn't borrow any of this methods directly from you without acknowledging it (which I don't think there is much of a case here) then it's hard to say that he owes anyone anything.

None of that changes the value of the work you've been doing though.

Yes, it would have been nice to acknowledge that others have been doing similar work, but IMO there isn't anything wrong with the article as is.

[Obi-dad]

ReefArtist, a lot of people here on RC have read the posts by you and by JenNKerry, and would acknowledge your contribution to the care of goniopora knowledge - although saying '99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements have come from 2 people' seems a little overboard. I have been keeping a goni using Justin's advice long before coming across your posts, and I am sure that others have kept them alive by feeding them also.

Why not contact ReefKeeping magazine and write an article yourself?

[JENnKerry]

Justin's article was very good and informative. But like Greenbean and Obi-dad said, he beat us to it. Well I can only speak for myself (Kerry) and Jen when I say that we never even thought about writing an article for the RK mag. But if people take the info from Justin's article, plus the numerous posts from myself and Reefartist along with visiting our sites, I'm sure a newbie that got suckered into buying a goniopora will have that much better of a chance at getting one to survive.
Bottom line, there's some great info out there.

[John Kelly]

Originally posted by greenbean36191
He beat you to publishing in RK.

I wasn't racing.

Yes, it would have been nice to acknowledge that others have been doing similar work, but IMO there isn't anything wrong with the article as is.

Exactly, it would have been nice to acknowledge the PUBLISHED work of others who have performed research and proved that Goniopora will feed on cyclopeeze and a number of other foods. It is obvious to me from his list of references that he did research online and referenced authors and researchers..........you don't think he read through and referenced our web sites? Mine is not hard to find if you type the word "Goniopora" into Yahoo. A web site is considered published material.

I may be hallucinating, but the FOODS section of the article sounds strangely familar; almost like the index page and foods/feeding page on my web site, just not in so many words. In fact, in his FOODS section, why even question this?:
"Another question exists as to which foods are best and which combinations are best. Perhaps feeding a coral a stew of 10 different kinds of food might impact its ability to digest the food, or maybe it makes no difference."

He must have gotten the idea that feeding a "stew" has been done by someone......otherwise, there would be no existing question about it. Does he reference who did it? No.
It is obvious he has seen it somewhere.
It just so happens that I feed a "stew" and give instructions for making it on my web site.
It just so happens that I have 10 different kinds of food listed on my web site from which a "stew" can be made.
It just so happens that his whole FOODS section reads very much like my web site.....................coincidence?.

O.K. I will be blunt, I think he purposely left out any reference to my work and Jen/Kerry's too in an attempt to sound as if he is braking all this "new ground". I have enough respect to give credit where credit is due and won't pull JenNKerry into this anymore (sorry) Now, I see that there is a race on. MACNA presentation, RK article,......very interesting. It's a good thing I'm giving the Goniopora presentation at IMAC 2006.

[John Kelly]

Originally posted by Obi-dad
ReefArtist, a lot of people here on RC have read the posts by you and by JenNKerry, and would acknowledge your contribution to the care of goniopora knowledge - although saying '99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements have come from 2 people' seems a little overboard.

I know you are his friend. Honestly, I don't think "99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements" is overboard at all.

I have been keeping a goni using Justin's advice long before coming across your posts, and I am sure that others have kept them alive by feeding them also.

I assume you are talking about utilizing a DSB and dosing the tank.
He just started Iron supplements less than 4 months ago.
He hasn't been using Liquid Life for very long; probably not even target feeding very long either.

Why not contact ReefKeeping magazine and write an article yourself?

Good Idea I think I will. Honestly, that is a good idea....I have a TON of research material.

[John Kelly]

Originally posted by JENnKerry
Justin's article was very good and informative.

Agreed.

But like Greenbean and Obi-dad said, he beat us to it. Well I can only speak for myself (Kerry) and Jen when I say that we never even thought about writing an article for the RK mag.

That's because you were trying to help others; not capitalize on information.

But if people take the info from Justin's article, plus the numerous posts from myself and Reefartist along with visiting our sites, I'm sure a newbie that got suckered into buying a goniopora will have that much better of a chance at getting one to survive.
Bottom line, there's some great info out there.

Definitely true.

[Obi-dad]

ReefArtist, you are trying to take way too much credit for feeding goiniopora - goiniopora are corals, and many have talked about feeding corals way before you, including Eric Borneman. We readers of RC DO appreciate all you have posted. But you did not invent feeding goiniopora, and 99.9% of the information on feeding goniopora is not from you.

[John Kelly]

Originally posted by Obi-dad
ReefArtist, you are trying to take way too much credit for feeding goiniopora

Am I? Is that why I am saying that JenNKerry deserve credit too? It is obvious to me that someone isn't giving any credit at all.

- goiniopora are corals, and many have talked about feeding corals way before you, including Eric Borneman.

Nice wording! Of course many have talked about feeding corals. Where are the experiments and results of feeding Goniopora published?

We readers of RC DO appreciate all you have posted.

Thank you everyone. If the mortality rate of Goniopora is cut in half, it was all worth the effort.

But you did not invent feeding goiniopora, and 99.9% of the information on feeding goniopora is not from you.

Again, nice wording! I did not say I or anybody invented anything. I said "advancements". There is a big difference.

If it were not for these advancements; I believe that there would not be a "Goniopora Care and Propagation" article. PERIOD. In fact, there probably wouldn't even be any Goniopora threads here on RC, or anywhere else, other than:
Question: "I've had a goni for a month and it's dying, what do I do?"
Answer: "It's going to die, do your research before you buy"
Answer: "Take it back to the store"
Answer: "Goni's should be banned from collection"
Answer: "I had one and it died in X months"
Answer: "Put it in your sump"
Answer: "They love fish doo and nitrates"
Answer: "Stirring up the sand bed seems to help"

I think the point is clear. The whole future of Goniopora in capitivity has been reversed.

[Steven Pro]

Originally posted by ReefArtist
since RK magazine is not a peer-reviewed journal, I'll post my thoughts here.

I just wanted to chime in here and say as someone who writes for RK, every article I have ever submitted has been reviewed by Dr. Ron Shimek, Eric Borneman, Skip Attix, and others that I can't recall now. As I understand it, that is RK's normal process.

[Steven Pro]

Originally posted by ReefArtist
99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements, on the other hand, have come from 2 people. JenNKerry at www.reefcraze.com (using Liquid Life Marine Plankton. site published in April) and myself at www.goniopora.org (utilizing the "stew" of mashed cyclopeeze and a number of other foods. site published in July). Both of us commenced these experiments at the beginning of Feburary of this year (2005)

I also hope that you realize the difference in keeping a challenging animal alive for three years (I believe that was Justin's longest) versus your eight and a half months.

That is not to belittle your accomplishments to date. I have seen your photo series of Goniopora eating Cyclop-Eeze. Those were superb!

[Obi-dad]

OK, I will reword it - not all of 99.9% of the advancements on feeding goniopora is from you.

I think you are getting too defensive. All I was pointing out is that you are claiming 99.9% of the credit, and that is not correct.

[shane 1111]

has any one had the guts to frag them. and he has ben feeding for a wile
he can produce way more frags than waiting for babies

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by ReefArtist
A web site is considered published material.

There are different standards of published material - and some might not consider personal websites.

Originally posted by ReefArtist
e must have gotten the idea that feeding a "stew" has been done by someone......otherwise, there would be no existing question about it. Does he reference who did it? No.
It is obvious he has seen it somewhere.
It just so happens that I feed a "stew" and give instructions for making it on my web site.

And I sure hope you credit Eric Borneman, who published [here and in his book] a `coral food stew' a few years ago.

Nevermind people sell products that are mixed foods for coral feeding ... where's the big innovation?

I suppose for completeness he could reference Eric, Julian [he sells coral foods], Anthony, etc etc etc ... and Melev, FlameAngel, and the many others [myself included] who have `published' our coral food recipes before this year.

No offense intended, but I think Eric's 2001 book would precede anyone here's coral-mush.

I don't think that's very revolutionary, and has been suggested by a number of `experts' and been used as foods [Formula One, etc] for a good number of years IMO.

[JENnKerry]

Wow. You know, the way I look at it, its not a compitition, its putting knowlege out there. The only thing we publish on our site is our methods and what works for us. Whether it will work for you or someone on the other side of the planet is something else.
Honestly, Im not THAT cocky to write an article for RK magazine or any other magazine for that fact. I cant, cause I cant truely 100% call my findings "success in keeping them alive!" If I found the cure and it was proven 1000 fold, then YEA, thats it. But I think its a bit premature for anyone to write an artical on a proven method on how to keep them alive.

Well, yea, most of my Goni's are pushing the 2 year mark, only losing 1 because it came in bleached (then brown jelly) and that I got to live for almost 5 months. AND my Goniopora Stoksi which is supposed to be the hardest Gonil to care for dropped 10 babies since January and is still going strong. Even with the success I have seen still hasnt built my confidence up enough to publish it in a magazine.

Thats just how I feel...
Jen

[LeslieP]

I really don't think that Justin wrote that article to be "cocky" or to race to publish first - he is releasing to the public information about his experiences with this sensitive and beautiful coral - just like anyone else who publishes to a website, he just picked a different medium to convey that information. I have seen the tanks that Justin oversees and have personally seen these Goniopora and their frags thriving and growing over the last few years, his success is no fluke. He cares about the corals and NOT personal or commercial gain.

IF RK is edited as StevenPro has said, then the reviewers would have requested references if they had felt that they were needed. Perhaps they felt that the information has been out in the public domain long enough that additional references were not needed about the mush. As a scientist who has a few publications, I know that I don't have to reference everyone in my field who has ever lifted a pipet, but to choose the ones that most closely impact my work.

I'm mostly writing this because it is appears that this thread is becoming an unfair attack on someone who was just trying to help inform others and I am certainly not trying to take anything away from others (JENnKerry & ReefArtist) who have also posted very important information that has helped countless others over the years.

[GSchiemer]

If anyone deserves credit and references related to Goniopora feeding, and especially supplementation (iron), it's Julian Sprung. He's written and spoken about this topic long before anyone mentioned in this thread. As far as I'm concerned, that's the real oversight and slight.

Greg

[JENnKerry]

Good post Leslie. To add a little further what Jen was saying before, if you go to our website, you will find information on what has worked for us. It may or may not work for you. She also said that most of our gonis are pushing the two year mark. We thought that after getting our first one, maybe it was a fluke. So we got another and another and another. They all seem to be thriving. So with that said, if we still have them in another two years, then maybe I'll publish an article for RK magazine.
I think Justin did a great job with his article and I for one found it very informative.

[John Kelly]

Originally posted by StevenPro
I just wanted to chime in here and say as someone who writes for RK, every article I have ever submitted has been reviewed by Dr. Ron Shimek, Eric Borneman, Skip Attix, and others that I can't recall now. As I understand it, that is RK's normal process.

Thanks for the clarification Steven. I did try to find this out before I posted, but I did not email RK mag.

Originally posted by StevenPro
I also hope that you realize the difference in keeping a challenging animal alive for three years (I believe that was Justin's longest) versus your eight and a half months.

Yes, I absolutely realize the difference. I respect that.......but, his whole article is based on this:
"Until recently, I have, in good conscience, offered the same advice heard from reefkeepers across the country when referring to Goniopora: "Yes, they're very pretty, but don't buy them. They won't make it past a year."....................."I can now tell customers that it is possible to keep Goniopora alive, as long as you provide the proper care and feeding for the species in question."

What revelation has been taking place for the past 8 1/2 months that recently changed his mind?

That is not to belittle your accomplishments to date. I have seen your photo series of Goniopora eating Cyclop-Eeze. Those were superb!

Thank you for the acknowledgement; it is uplifting

[shane 1111]

his are all captive grown. and he does not sell Goniopora Stoksi much. i would not but a Goniopora from just any store

[John Kelly]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
.

Mark, your just a troublemaker LOL
The first stew was probably invented when 1 person wasn't enough to feed the tribe anymore.

Actually, the "stew" took quite a bit of research and experimenting to create. It had to have the correct size, texture, taste, and ingredients to work. If you just dumped it into the tank, it wouldn't do a very good job of feeding your other corals because most of it would stay clumped, but yet it is soft enough to draw up into a target feeding device and for a goni to suck down. It needed to be viscous enough to hold a variety of foods and not come apart, but it also needed to be liquid enough that the goni would taste it and not reject it like they do dry foods. Since some goni's have small mouths and some have large, it needed to be adjustable from more viscous to less.

[John Kelly]

Originally posted by GSchiemer
If anyone deserves credit and references related to Goniopora feeding, and especially supplementation (iron), it's Julian Sprung. He's written and spoken about this topic long before anyone mentioned in this thread. As far as I'm concerned, that's the real oversight and slight. Greg

Actually, I think his second turn is coming...or is it third?

[greenbean36191]

Leslie, I couldn't have said it better myself.... I tried and I failed miserably.

The comment that he beat you to publishing in RK was not intended to imply that it was a race to be the first to publish as many people have obviously taken it. It simply meant that sometimes when two people are working on the same problem and one publishes in a more public venue first, then they are usually the one that gets the glory. It sucks for the other guy (you), but it doesn't make the work you did any less valuable.

Trying to improve our success at keeping these animals shouldn't turn into a ****ing match.

[John Kelly]

Originally posted by LeslieP
As a scientist who has a few publications, I know that I don't have to reference everyone in my field who has ever lifted a pipet, but to choose the ones that most closely impact my work.

BINGO!

[justincognito]

Very interesting thread. I am a little flattered but i'm not in this to fan my ego. First off i have only been to Jen and Kerry's website but not Reefartist. Seconnd I have spent well over a year using many different foods, noting reactions, making careful observations. I worked really, really hard on this article. I spent many days after work (2months straight right before it was done) and many sleepless nights to the detriment of my family. I made sure iwas as accruate as possible and that initself required much research. What you may have noticed is that i have only included 8 or 9 species of GOniopora. I have more under my care but i only wrote of the ones that i have had for a considerable period of time and i felt i was doing well with. Eric Borneman suggested i write the article and i thought the time was right.
Reef artist i understand you have been doing food mixtures. I have been using them for years with many other corals i grow. Perhaps our lists are so similar is because there are only so many foods available, and we have both discovered which have the best feeding reactions. I must give credit to Jen and Kerry for the Liquid life. If i didn't in this article i beleive i did in my MACNA talk. The reason i did not include threads in my article is because there are not peer reveiwed. Everything we say here is conjecture. Whenever i say anything in publication or at a talk that is not "proven" i make sure to say, " In my opinion." Referencing threads or websites is not proper in when writing an article. If i did that i would not be scientificaly accurate. I give much credit to everyone taking time to post and make websites dedicated these corals. I wrote this article because of my absolute love of these corals.
We can argue the merits of who did it first. But guess what? None of did. Eric B. has had a Goniopora for 9 years. Beat that!! some people have kept them for over a dozen years.
I have to go my kids are fighting.