Cyano don't go away!!! Help!!!

Oliver Nivbrant · #1 03/17/2006, 06:50 AM

I have been getting cyano for a few weeks and my lfs suggested that it was due to my flakes. I changed the flakes to spiriulina but it hasn't gone away. i have 5 fish in my 50g reef. i do water changes, about 8g every 2 weeks. can it be my nori that i feed my tang?? please help, i am in great need of it!

Trigeek · #2 03/17/2006, 07:21 AM

I've heard on this board (on Melev's thread I think) that Nori can cause phosphate levels to rise. Did you check your water source? Do you have enough critters in your sand bed?

Blown 346 · #3 03/17/2006, 08:10 AM

Cyano will form for several reasons, One being if you have low flow areas. The Cyano will form in areas with low or no flow areas. The second problem is overfeeding, too many nutrients/phosphates.

Caillou · #4 03/17/2006, 08:43 AM

You could just get a phosban reactor.

fuzz1974 · #5 03/17/2006, 08:51 AM

I would have to disagree with Blown346. I have that no flow is the cause of cyano, this is just a myth. I had cyano and everyone told me my flow was the problem. I pointed a powerhead directly at the stuff and it did nothing but fluorish. The params in my tank were right on, no phosphates, or nitrates. Go to a LFS and get EM tablets, in 24 hrs. you will have more cyano. If you run a skimmer keep an eye on it, if will foam like crazy.

Some people shy away from chemicals, but after about 3 weks of water changes and high flow on the stuff I had absolutely nop result in getting rid of it. Actually it made it grow more. I dropped some EM tabs in and within 24 hrs. no cyano. And I have not had it in my tank since.

Fuzz

fuzz1974 · #6 03/17/2006, 08:51 AM

Heard: I have heard that no flow

wojo · #7 03/17/2006, 09:06 AM

Whats your alk? Low alk will help cyano grow....

LOTUS50GOD · #8 03/17/2006, 09:09 AM

The botttom line is that anything that grows in your tank (good or bad) needs the proper conditions. Cyno likes lower flow and phosphates. Check the water that you mix your salt with... It may have phosphates from the tap...

Blown 346 · #9 03/17/2006, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fuzz1974
I would have to disagree with Blown346. I have that no flow is the cause of cyano, this is just a myth. I had cyano and everyone told me my flow was the problem. I pointed a powerhead directly at the stuff and it did nothing but fluorish. The params in my tank were right on, no phosphates, or nitrates. Go to a LFS and get EM tablets, in 24 hrs. you will have more cyano. If you run a skimmer keep an eye on it, if will foam like crazy.

Some people shy away from chemicals, but after about 3 weks of water changes and high flow on the stuff I had absolutely nop result in getting rid of it. Actually it made it grow more. I dropped some EM tabs in and within 24 hrs. no cyano. And I have not had it in my tank since.

Fuzz

The raseon why the cyano could have increased its growth is that you pointed a powerhead at it thus it would release its spores and spread. Usually you should cleanit up by siphon and then increase water flow where it was growing to help reduce and cut down on the problem until you find out what the cause for it is. By adding flow you wont get rid of it, you have to go directly to the source and research what it causing it to properly rid your system of it.

fuzz1974 · #10 03/17/2006, 09:23 AM

I did, I used a airline tube to suck it off the substrate and it just continued to grow. Like I said my parms were in check, don't know what brought it to my tank. All I know is after 24 hrs. it was gone with EM tablets.

The only reason I said I disagree with you is, everytime you hear of someone saying anything about cyano you hear people regurtitate that flow or lack there of is the reason. I found this to be untrue, since anyone I have talked to (locally) that has had cyano says that flow did not help their situation.

Fuzz

itstheantitang · #11 03/17/2006, 09:24 AM

I still disagree, I had cyano growing on the input to the powerhead, have it growing from the output of the filter and the skimmer.
Doesn't grow on the sand though!!! It used to

Blown 346 · #12 03/17/2006, 09:30 AM

Was your tank a newly set up system within mionths to a years time when you had this problem?
Poor or increased lighting can also bring on algae problems.

The only problem with algae's is they might not show up on a test kit since the algae will consume the reason for it growing fastert than your test kit can test for it. Maybe your water conditions seemed right to the test kit, but the actual cause of the algae was being consumed by the algae itself.

fuzz1974 · #13 03/17/2006, 09:34 AM

Yeah my tank was within the first 6 mos stage. All I know is after I spent 5 bux on EM tabs and 2 mins. putting them in my tank it was gone forever.

Fuzz

wojo · #14 03/17/2006, 09:36 AM

fuzz1974, what are the EM tabs, do you have a link? are they reef/fish safe? thanks

fgarvine · #15 03/17/2006, 09:38 AM

check kH and phosphate. Increase your water changes to 30% weekly and use a product named AllGone. It has a stable release x-cin antibiotic. Feed sparingtly and reduce your lighting a bit. This should do it in 3 - 6 weeks...

Blown 346 · #16 03/17/2006, 09:38 AM

The most possible reason for the algae could have been the new stages of the tank maturing, by adding the EM tablets etc it wil rid your tank of it. There is another product out there that alot of people use to get rid of Cyano, I justcant remember the name of it.

Petro · #17 03/17/2006, 10:00 AM

Could someone elaborate on EM tabs, what are they and how do you use them???

SteveOhh · #18 03/17/2006, 10:09 AM

My LFS recommended Chemi-Clean when I had a cyano problem.

Removed my carbon, used the product, did a 20% water change 3 days later & 3 months later, still no sign of cyano.

IMO, I'd do a 5-10 gallon water change weekly instead of a 8 gallon change bi-weekly...

Steve

AIMFish · #19 03/17/2006, 10:33 AM

EM tablets that people are referring to is erythromycin, the active ingredient in Maracyn, Mardel Labs product, I think EM tabs are Aquarium Pharm? It is an antibiotic, meaning it kills bacteria. I have used it at half dosage and achieved the same results. I usually turn the skimmer off for 2-3 days to let it do its job tho

It's a great quick fix but it doesn't address the cause of the problem. Excess nutrients are the reason the cyano is there. As mentioned it can grow in high and no flow areas and I've seen it grow in one tank on a system and not in the one directly beside it, both sharing the same 4ft. lights, one having a higher bioload and being fed more tho. As SteveOhh mentioned chemi-clean will help, I've never used that particular brand, but if you have access to Algone it will help with removing excess nutrients and keep the cyano from returning. SteveOhh also mentioned smaller more frequent water changes, something I also recommend. They take less time to do and help by removing waste sooner, waste/nutrients that may be on the rocks or substrate that the Cyano is feeding on.

OnTheReef · #20 03/17/2006, 12:49 PM

I agree with the previous posters; fighting cyano requires a multi-pronged approach to eliminate the causes (plural). I derived my current cyano battle plan from Julian Sprung's book Algae: A Problem Solver Guide and from reading the forums here and trying the many suggestions I read. Here it is:
1) Use only 0 TDS RO/DI water for top-off and making up new seawater. I have a Typhoon III from http://www.airwaterice.com which I and many others here consider to be the best unit for the money.
why: tap water has all sorts of minerals in it which, even at the smallest concentrations, provide food for the algae.

2) Start testing your alkalinity weekly and dose a good alkalinity buffer or Kalkwasser if it is low.
why: alkalinity retards the growth of many species of pest algae.

3) Get a high quality protein skimmer if you don't have one already and run it 24/7. This is one piece of equipment where you should be prepared to make an investment. There is an excellent skimmer thread in the "All Things Salty" forum on skimmers and how to tune them up.
why: dissolved organic compounds (DOCs) either directly, or by breaking down into simpler compounds such as nitrates, provide food for algae.

4) Consider adding a live refugium to your system. If you have a sump already, chances are you can convert it to a refugium.
why: the macroalgae growing in a live refugium compete with the algae in the main tank for nutrients (DOCs, nitrates, etc) making it harder for them to proliferate.

5) Free up any mats on your live rock with a toothbrush and suck them out with a siphon. Free up any colonies on the tank walls with an (acrylic safe) cleaning pad. Again, suck out whatever you can see with a siphon.
why: As you begin to remove the food sources for the algae from your tank, some of the algae will die off and decay, adding more nutrients to your tank water and prolonging the growth of the remaining algae.

6) Start doing smaller and more frequent water changes. In my small tanks, this means 10% twice a week. Small for me is anything less than 50 gallons, btw. Use a siphon with a vacuum attachment and try to get all of the brown gook out of the top 1" or so of your substrate.
why: Nutrients build up in your tank over time, both in the water and in the substrate. The longer these nutrients build up, the stronger the growth of the algae you are trying to remove.

7) Start feeding smaller amounts of food more frequently. I use a chef knife to shave paper thin slices of frozen Formula 1 and 2 gel blocks, which I feed 3 times a day.
why: the food we add to our tanks is wonderful algae food, especially as the uneaten particles fall to the bottom of the tank and decay. Adding less food more frequently ensures that the fish comsume as much of the food as possible, leaving less food for the algae.

8) Eliminate any sources of phosphate from your tank. Check your fresh salt mix and your activated carbon with your PO4 test kit. Stop feeding mysis or at least thoroughly wash them in RO water before you put them in the tank. Use phosban to get rid of whatever phosphate is in your tank already.
why: phosphate is a well-known nutrient for many types of algae.

9) If you are using power compacts or VHOs, change your bulbs and add some cooling fans so that your bulbs will last longer. Cool bulbs will last 8 months, overheating bulbs will last only 3-4 months.
why: over time, the wavelength distribution of fluorescent lights changes from being centered on the blue wavelengths to being centered on the red wavelengths. The blue wavelengths are more favorable to corals, while the red wavelengths are more favorable to algae. Overheating accelerates this aging process.

So Cal shaggy · #21 03/17/2006, 01:10 PM

Cyano is difficult to pinpoint the exact cause of but some of the reasons are:
1. poor water quality (never use tapwater always use RO/DI)
2. too much nutrients in the water
3. not enough flow both in the main tank and in the sump/refugium

always try to get rid of it without resorting to chemicals it takes time and can be tough but it will eventually go away it will always be present in the aquarium it is actually all over the live rock but you cannot see it the only time it can be seen is when there is a population explosion of the bacteria. The best approach to get rid of it is medium sized water changes more than once a week also if you are running carbon look at the brand some of the cheaper brands contain phosphates which help feed the cyano. Also a big problem is the sandbed nutrients will build up in it and help feed the cyano if you have a sandbed try not to disturb it do not vaccum it this will release unwanted nutrients into the water if it is very dirty get sand cleaning animals to clean it (lots of small hermits, sand sifting stars, assorted snails) this will help to keep the sandbed clean and loose.

Amphiprion · #22 03/17/2006, 01:33 PM

The bottom line of things that influences cyanobacterial growth is phosphate. These bacteria do not need nitrate at all to flourish. However, when given a phosphate source (either dissolved in water or in the form of detritus) in the absence of any nitrate, cyanobacteria will grow quite well. So, you need to limit phosphate sources as much as possible= get rid of detritus (and keep it from settling with proper water flow), do water changes, refugium, or phosphate adsorption media. Basically, what most other folks are saying. It is long and difficult, but it can be done without chemicals.

Oliver Nivbrant · #23 03/17/2006, 10:54 PM

thanks everyone for you great responses, its helped alot! My tank is just over 1 year old so it would be suprising if it was a phase of tank development. I use tap water to replace evaporated water and i have tested this water. It has no phosphates and i use prime to condition it. I get my water from the sea, I live in Perth, Western Australia so the water is close to the most pristine in the world.

I suck the algae off the rocks and suck almost daily but it still grows back. I am going to change my old nori for some new sheets, but i need it for my tang so i can't dispose of it fully. I am asking my lfs if they have these chemicals that excist but since i have a reef i doubt that they will be safe.

Can the algae go away if I start adding kalkawasser?? I don't atm. I have a Tunze skimmer and it is the best out there, it runs 24/7. I also have a refugium with macro algae.

Thanks again for all your help and i look forward to putting this problem behind me!

wojo · #24 03/17/2006, 11:08 PM

what do you mean by 'old nori' ? how ofter do you replace the weed sheets?

xtm · #25 03/17/2006, 11:21 PM

I want to comment on the Erythromycyn stuff.. I've used it and it DID clear out the Cyanobacteria on the sand.. just clean, white sand. About 6 months later, the Cyano is back.

I tore down the whole tank and started fresh - this time with right equipment: RO water, good flow, correct lighting, strict water change schedule - 1 year and still NO cyano.