Good Lordhowensis!!

[Badmort]

Originally posted by mothra
Mark / Mort

So is it your position that the larger number of acans in the market recently is just coincidence and the collectors just happen to be mis id'ing more lords all of a sudden, or that 'Acanthastrea echinata' is equivalent to 'all Acanthastrea species' as spelled out by CITES? I just want to clarify. I could potentially go along with the latter. Like I said I don't have the knowledge of that side of the industry and I'm looking to gain knowledge, but from my point of view if something says "Acanthastrea echinata" thats what it means.

The latter part is correct if confusing. Would make more sense for them to be marked plain Acanthastrea.
I believe there is more on the market because of demand. It shouldnt really surprise anyone after the rose anemone pricedrop. I'm not naive enough to believe every acan is marked / shipped legitimately., but those that aren't are a pretty small percentage. Most are brought in legit just not IDed down to the subspecies.

[Jus Reefin]

Originally posted by mothra
That may be, but I'm trying to determine why that is when the quota clearly states echinata? It sounds to me that maybe it was intended to only allow for the one species but because of limited resources this is exploited. Or possibly it was just never developed, as many species seem to be incompletely listed, while others like 'Acropora sp.' seem to allow for a blanket quota.

http://www.cites.org/common/quotas/2005/quotas2005.pdf

Ahh I see grasshoppa

BTW, can you translate that link LOL See ya Friday!!

[mothra]

Hey man, it is in 3 languages, if you can't understand at least one of them I can't help you out

I'll see you then.

[MiddletonMark]

And frankly, IMO a smart importer/exporter would pay attention to the market. I'd imagine a few good photos printed out, shown to collectors, could increase the `take' of a variety with high demand.

If I were importing corals, I'd find a way to let collectors know what was desired. Obviously they quit collecting certain things due to quotas, so interaction between exporter and collector must exist ... perhaps the increase is due partly to collectors being told about Acans desirability. [and specific morphs/colorations/etc]

Just my take on it.

As for why it's not `Acan sp.' I dunno - but it wouldn't be the first illogical rule by a governing authority
Either that, or they've got different ideas on the ability to ID to species level than hobbyists, but why they'd specify species-level then I have no clue.

I can only imagine Fish and Wildlife breaking off branches of Acropora, bleaching, and examining with scope/lens to ID those to species level `Sir, you can have your 12 boxes of Acropora in 3-4 weeks, once species-ID is complete'
Seems to me like some of those species ID's are mighty questionable already, for other corals.

Anyway, heap of opinion - don't call me an expert. Good questions, hopefully those with connections `higher up the import chain' can enlighten [and correct] us

[Monti]

Yeah, for CITES you are only required to ID the coral to the genus level. So all acans are lumped together under Acanthastrea echinata. A lord or hillae can legally enter the US under the echinata name.
Thanks Randy and Mothra. No Randy, I only have that many posts, I prefer to learn from listening rather than talking! Plus I usually don't have time to post.... And mothra, your right, it is a fad, but what makes me mad is that some people seem to have a problem with fads. Welcome to America folks. I'm sorry this isn't yet a coral utopia where everyone swaps frags of everything and no one pays for anything. If it's hot and hard to find, some people don't mind paying alot of money to get it. That's the way its been since history began, but for some reason its not okay this hobby. Go figure.

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by Monti
Yeah, for CITES you are only required to ID the coral to the genus level. So all acans are lumped together under Acanthastrea echinata. A lord or hillae can legally enter the US under the echinata name.
Thanks Randy and Mothra. No Randy, I only have that many posts, I prefer to learn from listening rather than talking! Plus I usually don't have time to post.... And mothra, your right, it is a fad, but what makes me mad is that some people seem to have a problem with fads. Welcome to America folks. I'm sorry this isn't yet a coral utopia where everyone swaps frags of everything and no one pays for anything. If it's hot and hard to find, some people don't mind paying alot of money to get it. That's the way its been since history began, but for some reason its not okay this hobby. Go figure.

From my understanding, that is incorrect. Export lists may lump them together, but, the export docs don't, and can't enter that way either. The reason they say echinata, is cuz your only aloud echinata Why do you think they list all the different acros, and have seperate quotas for each, if they weren't going to ID them all the way down? Imports from non CITES member nations are now required to do the same (give entire name of all items imported). If you label some as just acro, it'll get held or taken (plus fine). Sometimes they'll release it, but you'll get flagged for sure. If you say it's a echinata, and is a lord, that is smuggling!

USF&WS does take shipments all the time for faulty docs. I know personally of several that have been taken for incorrect ID on the exporters part. The field agents (some) can ID, and if they can't, they won't sign off till they or some one can. In this business/industry there are a few gods in Mt Olympus, US Customs (arm of Homland Security now), USF&WS and the airlines. All require your docs be in order, t's crossed, i's dotted and 2 days prior notice to USF&WS for MO imports.

I can only imagine Fish and Wildlife breaking off branches of Acropora, bleaching, and examining with scope/lens to ID those to species level `Sir, you can have your 12 boxes of Acropora in 3-4 weeks, once species-ID is complete'

Not too far from the truth Mark

[mothra]

Gresham, that's what I was getting at originally. With the many points of view being stated this issue is about as clear as mud.

[GreshamH]

Tell yah what, IIRC USF&WS will have a booth at MACNA this year. Anyone going, simply ask them this question, they'll answer in a heart beat. I'd ask locally, but, I no longer need to go there as I'm in a different line of work now (MO related ).

[Anthony Calfo]

grrrr.... the info is available for anyone that will take time to read the darn CITES web site!

They have easy to navigate tutorials, etc.

I mentioned this in my article, my post(s)...

...and for anyone else that could navigate past their home page, any number of search engines, log in to RC and make their way to this thread to beat each other up, but are not quite capable enough to... ah, type in the word "Acanthastrea" and tag the very fist ding dang link that pops up (on my first try at least)...

CITES.org says:

"Coral taxa where identification to genus level is acceptable,
but which should be identified to species level where feasible."

includes: 10 species of Acanthastrea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(the exclamation marks are my embellishment... that's not on the CITES website.

Come on people! Work with me here!

Please be more resourceful. Its a simple search tool and mere seconds/minutes to answer these/your questions for yourself!

Sigh... OK. I'm done now

Can you tell I find the mental masterbation/banter of such threads frustrating?

And contrary to my sig and strong disdain (could you tell) for being an enabler...

I'll make an exception here... the link:

http://www.cites.org/eng/notif/2003/020.shtml

notice too the all Acropora species in the allowance.

---

Trade in hard corals

List of coral taxa that can be recognized at species and at genus levels

1. Decision 11.99 required the Animals Committee to provide advice to the Secretariat on the genera of hard corals for which it is practical to recognize specimens in trade to the species level, and on the genera for which identification to genus level only is acceptable for the purpose of implementing Resolutions Conf. 11.17 [now Resolution Conf. 11.17 (Rev. CoP12)] and Conf. 10.2 (Rev.) (repealed by Resolution Conf. 12.3).

2. A list of coral genera that can be identified to species level and of those that can be identified to genus level only was adopted by the Animals Committee at its 18th meeting (San José, April 2002). In his report for the 12th meeting of the Conference of the Parties (Santiago, 2002), the Chairman of the Animals Committee recommended that this list be distributed by the Secretariat as a Notification to the Parties (see document CoP12 Doc. 10.1, paragraph 76). This recommendation was accepted by the Conference of the Parties.

3. Consequently, the Secretariat hereby provides a list of 71 taxa of hard coral that are considered to be identifiable to species level (see Annex 1), and 49 taxa where identification to genus level is acceptable but which should be identified to species level where feasible (see Annex 2).

[shane 1111]

are you stressed out Anthony? you need to take a vacation.
i will house sit for you. at no charge!

[RAY TERRANELLA]

I think some of you people are missing the point of Anthonys statements.His position is to educate and inform fellow reefers not to point fingers at them.This thread would have been much shorter if some could understand this.I paid 200$ for a 4 polyp frag of an orange and green lord and although I greatly enjoy it after reading his informative articles i would'nt do it again.

[Project Reef]

Originally posted by RAY TERRANELLA
I think some of you people are missing the point of Anthonys statements.His position is to educate and inform fellow reefers not to point fingers at them.This thread would have been much shorter if some could understand this.I paid 200$ for a 4 polyp frag of an orange and green lord and although I greatly enjoy it after reading his informative articles i would'nt do it again.

[mothra]

Ray, this thread has 2 topics going. One is the price fixing claims, the other is the topic of collection/poaching and what is and is not legal, which is what we have been trying to figure out and become educated on (speaking for myself).

I'm curious why you stated that you paid that price but wouldn't do it again, since you're happy with the coral.

[MiddletonMark]

Be glad you didn't pay this:

http://www.saltwaterfish.com/site_11...ot_parent_id=4

[Anthony Calfo]

indeed, my friends... it is no secret that I personally am driven to educate. Some people are driven to build... some to deconstruct... others to problem solve or fight fires... some even to become the best exotic dancers in the world... OK, wait... so I'm driven by two things in this world: to educate and to be the best darn exotic dancer. But only one of those things has anything to do with this thread

Honest to goodness... I really cherish others people's time as much as my own. The part of me that doesn't suffer fools well (including my own foolish behavior at times) is reaaaaaaaly agitated and disappointed to see time wasted.

It bothers me none that my opinion about CITES definitions for the blanket export of multiple species under one genus name/type-species was missed or ignored by some.

but when the overseer(CITES) is mentioned in the thread, and the links to the site are quoted in the article of the thread's namesake, and the passage in the article with the links regurgitated in the thread, etc. at some point sooner rather than later I was hoping someone would have helped themselves to confirm the information that was waiting with a simple keyword search on the (CITES) website.

This reminds me how too often readers/seekers of information finish a book or article... and tune out the bibliography or suggested references. Man... that's the best part of a well-written article or book! The article/book is really just the coming attractions or movie trailer ... the summary of all the good/detailed data found to take the position for the paper(s).

Do (please) be more resourceful, my friends.

As for the price-fixing... its a dead issue. You have to take this one at our word for it or not. If/until any of y'all get a phone call to consult the Feds... its a matter of trusting those that have been called (I'm aware of at least half dozen folks consulted).

I for one would love to never comment/advise on such matters. I'd rather there were no crooks at all in our otherwise happy lil hobby/industry.

As for poaching... similar to above, but then again... a savvy consumer and educated hobbyist that knows he/she has never seen a coral from Australia, Hawaii, Japan, etc could pause and invest 30 seconds into a google search to see/verify it (legality or not). I mention this because many of these corals were indeed marketed as "Japanese."

And not only did the sellers of these corals shift (under fear of being caught) to calling them "Not-Indo" or something other than Japanese, along with secret (bidders names withheld to hide the schilling done by friends working in collusion to drive prices higher) auctions on E-Bay, but mods on other message boards have told us of seller's requests to have their old posts edited to remove the word "Japanese" from sales threads.

Does any of that seem odd or suspicious to you?

With even all that aside... even the very astronomically exorbitant price of such corals relative to the majority of other corals on the market should make you wonder.

Really... its a big world... big ocean(s)... lots of reefs. How rare could it really be? Enough to make the difference between $40 retail and 4,000?

Anyone that's been to a reef and seen miles of the same corals would not believe the hype.

And anyone with common sense that hasn't been to a reef should not either IMO.

As for the fair market price... I have never taken exception to the high prices when(!) the "fair" market price is set by fair (!) play. Truthful advertising of legal products.

I do not subscribe wholesale to "buyer beware", on this point.

As a consumer... I want consumer advocacy. I want safe roads, inspected beef and sellers not to lie to me. In return, I will happily pay my taxes and obey market law. But only on legal, lawful goods.

Otherwise... the acan junkies passing off the "you gotta pay to play" mantra while dismissing the apparent irregularities in this particular market sound like... well, real junkies to me.

Just my (very) biased opinion again FWIW

[MiddletonMark]

Anthony, as always ... thanks for your time. Here's to learning.

You may be destined to teach, but we're destined to beat the horse to death

[Anthony Calfo]

always welcome

(Dang I'm long-winded sometimes - BTW)

[Project Reef]

Originally posted by mothra
I'm curious why you stated that you paid that price but wouldn't do it again, since you're happy with the coral.

Well that was an odd question.

Just because the 20 piece Chicken McNugget deal at McDonald's make me happy, doesn't mean I should pay $79.99 for them.

[RandyO]

Originally posted by Project Reef
Well that was an odd question.

Just because the 20 piece Chicken McNugget deal at McDonald's make me happy, doesn't mean I should pay $79.99 for them.

mmmm, McNuggets. :P

There's no smilie for drool.

[Badmort]

There's no smilie for drool. [/B][/QUOTE]



Really?.........................

[Jus Reefin]

Originally posted by Project Reef
Well that was an odd question.

Just because the 20 piece Chicken McNugget deal at McDonald's make me happy, doesn't mean I should pay $79.99 for them.

Why shouldn't you do what makes you happy with your hard earned money.

BTW after watching that SuperSize me Movie I will never eat another chicken mcnugget in my life

[RandyO]

Originally posted by Anthony Calfo


And not only did the sellers of these corals shift (under fear of being caught) to calling them "Not-Indo" or something other than Japanese, along with secret (bidders names withheld to hide the schilling done by friends working in collusion to drive prices higher) auctions on E-Bay, but mods on other message boards have told us of seller's requests to have their old posts edited to remove the word "Japanese" from sales threads.

Does any of that seem odd or suspicious to you?

We've hit some more new useful information. I always thought the private auctions were to prevent people from emailing the bidders and try to convince them they were wasting there money.
What happens when a friend wins an auction with a false bid? The auction ends, and ebay gets there fees. This seems counter productive.
I know when I bid on something on Ebay, I set a price I'm willing to pay and that's it. If I'm outbid, then there's always another auction. It seems to me that an auction's ending price is a refection of what the winning bidder was willing to pay.

There has been a ring of people interested in these corals for a while now. When the Ebay auctions started, many of these same people were bidding on these Acans, myself included. Though, I would never bid anything higher than what I was willing to pay if I won the auction.
So, while I don't feel threatened by the remarks of collusion since I've never bid on a coral I wasn't willing to purchase, I feel your statement lumps that ring of collectors together, forcing multiple dogs to yipe out "conspiracy what?"

[Anthony Calfo]

RandyO... thank you for your input.

[Project Reef]

Originally posted by Jus Reefin
Why shouldn't you do what makes you happy with your hard earned money.

BTW after watching that SuperSize me Movie I will never eat another chicken mcnugget in my life

Okay, a nice juicy 24oz Porterhouse. Going price at most places is 20-30 dollars. You're telling me if those same places started offering the same steak for $249.99 you'd be happy to pay?

Ugh...

[Project Reef]

Making yourself happy is one thing, making yourself happy yet still maintaining your sensibility is another.