Sedra vs Eheim (Skimmer RC)

Treg · #1 01/30/2005, 12:08 PM

I'm currently researching for my next skimmer.

What things make the Eheim pumps better then the Sedras for Recirculating Skimmers? (Feel free to mention others aswell.)

I cant find much information about the Eheims other then GPH and watts. Looks like the Eheims use less electric and push less water than comparable Sedras but are they moving more air? If so, why? Is it the impeller? The Venturi?

(I'm interested greatly in the Airflow between the two or others.)

Is there any posted information with a breakdown of Watts, GPH and Airflow?

Treg · #2 01/30/2005, 10:32 PM

Seriously? Nobody cares to share their knowledge on pumps and air flow with me?

Lets make it easy, Eheim 1060 (since its the only one I can find with a needle wheel) VS Sedra 9000 (apples to apples) and Why?

moonpod · #3 01/30/2005, 11:28 PM

All I can tell you is that from first hand experience comparing the Eheim 1260 (Deltec needlewheel) and the sedra 5000 (ER and ASM needlewheels) the Eheim seemed to visually, obviously produce more foam. It's not objective, I do not have an airflow meter to measure them. It's just based on experience, first hand using an ER 8 series, a GEO recirculating dual sedra 5000, and a Deltec AP702. I will be able to report on a ER RC unit with a dolphin pump this week, so stay tuned.

APynckel · #4 01/30/2005, 11:28 PM

here is the deltec Eheim NWI (needle wheel impeller):

Here is the Sedra:

Each taken from deltecs and ER's site respectively. If you compare them, there really is minimal difference between the 2.

The only real difference that i've found between the 2 pumps, is energy consuption savings of the Eheim (which over in Europe is important). The wheels are essentially the same other than that.

moonpod · #5 01/30/2005, 11:31 PM

AJ you gotta use capitals on the IMG part.

Oh yeah and having owned both they do seem similar though the materials are different. My understanding is that there are design subtlties. Deltec "changed" something to make them work better with the different US Hz vs the Hz of the euro units.

APynckel · #6 01/30/2005, 11:32 PM

thanks moon, normal boards aren't that picky.

Treg · #7 01/30/2005, 11:37 PM

Glad you chimed in chuck, I know you have more hands on then most.

But isnt the Sedra 5000 head to head with an eheim 1060 (1260?) a little unfair? Atleast at a performance stand point?Watts are comparable I suppose but not air flow?

So what is giving the Eheim the edge? The Venturi?

moonpod · #8 01/30/2005, 11:58 PM

that part I doubt. The venturi on both of these skimmers is a very simple thing. It may just be engineering, it may just be that the parts just work together better. Who knows. All I can tell you is that the AP702 impressed the heck out of me. Course at the price it better have....

Treg · #9 01/31/2005, 12:10 AM

Agreed, and Understood.

As much as I would like to have an AP702 I just dont think I can justify that price for ME. Especially after reading Seans thread. I have very few fish now with no plans of overstocking anytime soon... But there is still the temptation (if beneficial?) to replace the Sedras with the available 1060's on a custom built skimmer... Granted those 1060's are not from the same "German Bloodline".

What do you think?

moonpod · #10 01/31/2005, 12:20 AM

again, I can't say. I dunno the 1060 and how it works. I'm not sure if all the performance is from the parts or the "sum" of the parts ya know? I can tell you this much, I've never had trouble getting any skimmer to "skim" for me. So I get this weird feeling whenever I read that someone had trouble with this or that. That being said, this was the easiest skimmer to setup and has the stankiest (is that a word) skimmate that it produces in good volume. And I dunno if it's the skimmer or the change back to reefcrystals (from oceanic), but my tank looks great despite feeding like a mad dog now.

Treg · #11 01/31/2005, 12:41 AM

1060... 1260.... Eheim vs Eheim vs Sedra vs Dolphin and whatever else... It was confusing, now its just frustrating. Limited (easily accessible) published information. Asking vendors or manufactures is frowned upon I guess. Atleast I cant get a straight answer... I guess its asking for the industries top secretes. Which brings me here...

All I want to do is make an educated purchase, Be it a $600 or $1,600 one. Is that so bad?

I checked my websters, no stankiest listed but I gotcha.

8 cubes a day? You should never have a problem with getting skim.

moonpod · #12 01/31/2005, 12:49 AM

Well...yeah, it does help b/c I KNOW I've got organics in my water column

Here's the deal: JMO, yes a deltec/H&S outskims a comparable size and pumped ER. That being said, is it "necessary". Probably not. There are A LOT of good skimmers out there. ERs are good skimmers. I still like beckett units a lot. I think there's a lot to be said for the amount of air you can move through a beckett injector. I think you should look at your setup, see what types of units make the most sense, and then budget for the biggest/baddest skimmer that'll fit. By that I mean, is noise an issue? Is electrical consumption an issue? Those things favor needlewheels vs becketts. Is bang for your buck an issue? that favors becketts. If you got limited space, but your budget is relatively bigger, then you can start looking at the "originals" (H&S and Deltec). If you've got endless space, well, frankly, you always benefit from a bigger skimmer. It's not like ERs, MRCs etc... don't work.

Treg · #13 01/31/2005, 01:11 AM

True True. All good points.

Frankly I cant say I NEED a better skimmer now but I have plans of a new tank come summer. So why not now?

If I were to go German it would be Deltec, hands down. Again I just dont think I can justify the crap exchange rate and double shipping for ME. Plus I'm attracted to a more custom design.

I'm pretty dead set on a RC unit.... Just gotta make a decision on what pumps...

reefkeeper1 · #14 01/31/2005, 02:24 AM

Treg, two other needle wheel pumps you might want to look at are the Ocean Runner 2700 and the Ocean Runner 3700 from AquaMedic. I replaced the Sedra 5000 (after the impeller magnet expanded and became inoperable) on my Euro-Reef CS 6-2+, and I think the Ocean Runner 2700 does a better job of filling the skimmer body with very fine bubbles. At $49.95 from Custom Aquatic, it's also relatively inexpensive pump to try.

Treg · #15 01/31/2005, 11:36 AM

Thanks for the input reefkeeper. Thats a pretty good buy!

reefkeeper1 · #16 01/31/2005, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Thanks for the input reefkeeper. Thats a pretty good buy!

Here's a link to a picture of my skimmer powered with an OR2700. If you play around with the air input through how you insert the air intake or with a ball valve, you can turn the whole skimmer body white with bubbles. I also used a larger diameter air intake tube (1/4" OD with a thin wall) than the one that came stock with the Sedra 5000. I originally used polypropylene, but I switched to some extra Norprene tubing I had lying around. I think the softer tubing helps decrease the amount of noise.

mikester · #17 01/31/2005, 11:47 AM

It's hard to compare the air injection rates, because ER doesn't publish those figures for it's skimmers. I know that Todd March called ER and they told him that the Sedra pump on his CS8-2-RC injects 500 lph of air. If that is the case, then it is seriously underpowered for that size skimmer, considering that's what the 6" diameter Deltec and H&S units can do, and they have almost half the chamber volume. The comparable Deltec (AP850) with an Eheim pump injects 900 lph of air.

That's a big difference, although like you I still can't figure out exactly why the Eheims are so much more effective. The smaller Deltec and H&S skimmers use Aquabee pumps instead of Eheims, yet they still outperform the Sedras, which leads me to believe that it does have something to do with the impeller, even though the physical differences are subtle.

Treg · #18 01/31/2005, 11:49 AM

I'm thinking about making my LifeReef recirculating til I get a new one built. Those look like good choices.

Treg · #19 01/31/2005, 12:02 PM

Mike I completly agree, 500lph is not enough. But isnt that a Sedra 5000? So would that make the Sedra 9000 - 900 lph? Nobody can/will say.

The price between the two is minimal and a 900 lph Sedra is a little more on par with the "German" eheim. The million dollar question is how does the "American" Eheim (1060) compare to his imported brother... Then to the Sedra 9000. (In LPH, Of couse the Eheim uses less energy and is arguably more durable.)

FinsReef · #20 02/02/2005, 05:33 AM

The american Eheim on the Deltec and H&S skimmers is a model 1260. The 1060 is the older/Euro version. The US units does pull more air than the European counterparts. The OR3500 pulls ~650-700lph air for comparison.
HTH

Treg · #21 02/02/2005, 11:42 PM

Brian,

Can you say how much more air the 1260 pulls than the 1060 model? Or compare the 1060 to the Sedra 9000?

FinsReef · #22 02/03/2005, 11:54 PM

Treg,
Sorry but the 1060 has not been imported into the US for alteast 3 years that I know of. It is still used overseas some. I do not have a Sedra 9000 to test at this moment, but Euro-Reef should be able to give those numbers to you. I would not want to speculate on it without knowing. Most of the listing I can find for the European Needlewheel's are listed at pulling between 600 and 700 ltrs of air per hour.

marcrothschild · #23 02/04/2005, 02:24 AM

I am interested in improving my life reef in sump skimmer w a mag9.5. How would you make it recirculating? I was thinking of replacing the standard venturi with a mazzei venturi. I am not sure if i should get the 3/4" or 1" injector. I think those are supposed to be very efficient injectors. do you think it would help? I dont mean to hijack the thread, but it seems to be related to the topic

ejamsrhere · #24 02/09/2005, 08:01 PM

I am going to be changing the pump out on my 48" x 6" skimmer to a needlewheel.

I found this page with a pretty good listing of NW pumps-

http://www.customaquatic.com/customa...dexid=ps-ac-pm

I would really like to know which of these pumps are better too. I don't mind spending the money for the eheim if it's that much better than the OR or the sedra, but it would be nice to know.

Also, I know that it's pretty easy to make a simple venturi, but where can you get the venturi's that ER is using on the sedra's? Or the ones that are used on the eheims....