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  #1  
Old 01/11/2008, 01:04 AM
Cope Cope is offline
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Thumbs down I am a sinner, and payment is due!

OK here goes, asbestos beanie and face mask on, looking for fire suit?

I use tap watter.

I do not QT my fish.

I treat my DT (my only tank at the moment)

I think thats it for now?

So the questions are.....

1. If my tap watter has copper in it, why do my inverts and shrooms thrive?

2. If my tap watter has copper in it why do I still battle ICK?

My tank now has ICK so....

1b. I guess I need two QT tanks? One for my fish and one for my inverts and shrooms?


I guess that about sums it up.
Thanks for you're help.
Cope
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Fishies.. 2 perc. clowns @ 1.5", cromis 1 @ 1", PJ cardinal 2 @ 1.5", Blue hippo tang 1@ 1.5", Star goby 1 @ 2.5", Yellow watchmen goby 1 @ 1.5", Fire fish 1 @ 2.5" Inverts. CB large, Cleaner shrimp 1 @ 2.5", Peppermint shrimp 5 @ 1" to 2", Naz snails 10, A few large snails

Last edited by Cope; 01/11/2008 at 01:28 AM.
  #2  
Old 01/11/2008, 01:09 AM
Cope Cope is offline
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2b. will the hypo SG and high temp kill all the BB and bristle worms?
(DT)
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Fishies.. 2 perc. clowns @ 1.5", cromis 1 @ 1", PJ cardinal 2 @ 1.5", Blue hippo tang 1@ 1.5", Star goby 1 @ 2.5", Yellow watchmen goby 1 @ 1.5", Fire fish 1 @ 2.5" Inverts. CB large, Cleaner shrimp 1 @ 2.5", Peppermint shrimp 5 @ 1" to 2", Naz snails 10, A few large snails
  #3  
Old 01/11/2008, 01:20 AM
stuccodude stuccodude is offline
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I know a sinner, uses tap water, never does water changes, feeds 2-3 times a day, puts his hands in without washing,no skimmer, no sump and its not a beutiful tank but its been going about 4 years with a really nice anonome, its late and i cant spell right now, good luck with your tank cope
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  #4  
Old 01/11/2008, 01:26 AM
Cope Cope is offline
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LOL awesome thanks.

The 4th at Pismo was fun when I was a kid, no fences then.
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Fishies.. 2 perc. clowns @ 1.5", cromis 1 @ 1", PJ cardinal 2 @ 1.5", Blue hippo tang 1@ 1.5", Star goby 1 @ 2.5", Yellow watchmen goby 1 @ 1.5", Fire fish 1 @ 2.5" Inverts. CB large, Cleaner shrimp 1 @ 2.5", Peppermint shrimp 5 @ 1" to 2", Naz snails 10, A few large snails
  #5  
Old 01/11/2008, 02:34 AM
Cope Cope is offline
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Man you are good.....


(Cut and paste)
(By) Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist

There seems to have been a whirlwind of activity around copper on some other forums,


http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums...ead.php?t=15666

http://www.reefland.com/forum/marin...o-glass-no.html

and I was asked to comment on a couple of threads at different forums, so I thought I'd also post that info here:

Here are my thoughts on copper:

1. Copper in a reef aquarium is going to be strongly bound to organic materials. That is known to be true in natural seawater at normal copper levels. Maybe when you initially blast seawater with unbound copper there is substantial free copper for some period of time, until the copper concentration eventually drops, or the free copper has a chance to find organics to bind to.

2. While free copper may or may not bind much to glass (and likely none to silicone, IMO), organic bound copper will bind to both glass and silicone surfaces. Not into it, but onto it. It would be an interesting experiment to put some clear cured silicone into a copper/water solution to see if it turns blue. My expectation is that it will not, but I've not done the experiment.

3. It is my opinion that it is not too difficult to remove copper from all plastic and glass objects in an aquarium, but specifically not those that are calcium carbonate. A little bleach will remove organics and copper along with them. A little acid (like vinegar) will remove inorganic copper and some of its precipitates (like copper carbonate or oxide/hydroxide). I think all such objects can be reused after such cleaning.

4. Calcium carbonate surfaces are a much bigger concern. Just as magnesium gets onto and actually into calcium carbonate surfaces, copper and other similar ions would be expected to do the same thing. It is not trivial to clean live rock and sand. In most cases, I'd recommend tossing it. If that is just not an option, cleaning it in acid so that you actually dissolve some of the surface away is a reasonable thing to try, and some folks in my forum have done that.



"Why all the countless years have we not seen dying inverts in tanks where we used copper medications?"


I discuss copper toxicity here:

Tap Water in Reef Aquaria
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm

from it:

"Toxic Metals in Tap Water: Copper

One of the biggest concerns for aquarists considering the use of tap water is copper. Copper is more toxic to marine invertebrates than it is to humans, so the EPA allows more in tap water than an aquarist would want in an aquarium. Specifically, the EPA has an action level at 1.3 ppm copper in tap water, and it is only a big problem (to the EPA) if more than 10% of the homes on the water supply exceed that level. For that reason, water supplies typically report the 90% level, meaning that 10% of homes exceed that stated value. Many also report the maximum level in any home tested.

Table 5 shows copper levels for a small selection of homes for all of the cities in this study. The reason that copper must be tested at the home tap is that most of the copper in public water supplies comes from the pipes in the home itself. Further, newer does not necessarily mean better, as fresh copper pipes might be even more inclined to release copper to the water than those that have had decades to build up protective coatings.

How much copper is too much? That is difficult to say, and certainly varies from organism to organism. In a recent test,5 Ron Shimek added copper to natural seawater and looked at the effect on sea urchin larvae. He found that concentrations above 10 ppb decreased the larval survival after 48 h, and that concentrations above 100 ppb killed all of them. Whether that translates into particular copper levels to be concerned about in typical reef aquaria is open to discussion. Nevertheless, it points out that copper is potentially toxic at levels well below the EPA action level of 1.3 ppm. That hypothesis is well supported by the literature on copper toxicity.6 Canadian Water Quality Guidelines for the Protection of Aquatic Life suggest that copper be kept to less than a few ppb in fresh water, but they do not provide a salt water recommendation. "



In terms of chemistry of inorganic copper absorption, bare glass is likely to carry a net negative charge in seawater (from silicate) and can bind copper as a copper silicate complex. This is well established in the scientific literature:


Adsorption of some divalent cations from aqueous solution on precipitated silica. Bye, Gerald C.; McEvoy, Michael; Malati, Mounir A. Mid-Kent Coll. Higher Further Educ., Chatham, UK. Journal of the Chemical Society, Faraday Transactions 1: Physical Chemistry in Condensed Phases (1983), 79(10), 2311-18.
Abstract

The adsorption of Co2+, Ni2+, Cu2+, Zn2+, and Cd2+ on the K+ form of a pptd. silica is reported. The adsorption isotherms of Co2+ and of Ni2+ at pH 7.0 and different temps. follow the Langmuir isotherm. The endothermic apparent heats of adsorption, 2 and 10 kJ/mol, resp., are compared with those of Cu2+ and Cd2+. The limiting amt. adsorbed, Xm, of the 4 ions decrease as the pH is lowered. An ion-exchange mechanism between hydrated K+ ions in the outer Helmholtz layer and metal, M2+, ions in soln. is proposed. The results also suggest that (MOH)+ ions are adsorbed at the higher pH values. A plot of Xm at pH 6.0 and 323 K for the 5 ions studied against at. no. exhibits the Irving-Williams sequence. At pH 3.0, i.e. close to the point of zero charge of SiO2, the adsorption results were used to calc. the free energy of specific adsorption, DG, using the Grahame equation. The DG values were -11.1, -10.7, -13.4, -13.3, and -12.1 kJ/mol for Co, Ni, Cu, Zn, and Cd, resp. Specific adsorption is tentatively ascribed to the formation of surface coordination complexes.

Ion-exchange adsorption of zinc and copper ions on silica. Kozawa, A. Univ. Nagoya, Japan. Journal of Inorganic and Nuclear Chemistry (1961), 21(3/4), 315-24.
Abstract

Ion-exchange adsorption of Zn and Cu ions on silica were examd. in 2M NH4Cl contg. ZnO or ZnCl2 and in M NH4OAc contg. 0.05M CuCl2, resp. The ion-exchange adsorption attains equil. in about 2 hrs. at 25°. The adsorption of Zn++ increases with the pH of the soln. up to pH 7.12, then decreases. Between pH 5.48 and 6.38 the mole-ratio of H+ released Zn2+ adsorbed is const. at .apprx.3.0. Zn++ adsorption on heated silica decreases markedly with increase in the heating temp. For Cu++ adsorption, the mole-ratio, H+ rel./Cu2+ ads., is 4.0. The infrared absorption spectra of silica samples, heated silica, and silica treated with Zn2+, Cu2+, and Na+ solns., were taken. A decrease in the absorption intensities for the bending vibration of OH groups on the silica is discussed. A surface complex mechanism for metal ion adsorption of silica is proposed; the silica surface is acting as tridentate ligands for the Zn++ adsorption. A new method for detg. the surface acid and the surface area of silica is suggested.



Reaction of silica gel with copper ions in acetate solutions. II. Rak, R. V.; Dushina, A. P.; Aleskovskii, V. B. Leningr. Tekhnol. Inst. im. Lensoveta, Leningrad, USSR. Zhurnal Prikladnoi Khimii (Sankt-Peterburg, Russian Federation) (1971), 44(5), 1068-73.

Abstract

Sorption of Cu ions by silica gel from acetate solns. was studied under 2 different conditions: (a) contact time from 1 min to 24 hr using 4.7 ´ 10-2M Cu(NO3)2 in M AcONa; and (b) contact time from 2 to 120 days with 4.25 ´ 10-4-4.8 ´ 10-2M Cu(NO3)2 in M AcONa. The soly. of the polysilicate salts and the hydrated Cu silicates, in the form of activity products, Kp = aCu2+aSiO32- and Kc = aCu2+aSSiO32-, was (0.8 ± 0.1) ´ 10-19 and 1.9 ´ 10-19, resp.

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(End cut and paste)

So I guess I got answers to the first 2 questions, any one got a comment on 1b?

MR. Randy Holmes-Farley

All I can say is wow!........Dang!........


Thank you for you're time to answer my previous question.
Cope
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Fishies.. 2 perc. clowns @ 1.5", cromis 1 @ 1", PJ cardinal 2 @ 1.5", Blue hippo tang 1@ 1.5", Star goby 1 @ 2.5", Yellow watchmen goby 1 @ 1.5", Fire fish 1 @ 2.5" Inverts. CB large, Cleaner shrimp 1 @ 2.5", Peppermint shrimp 5 @ 1" to 2", Naz snails 10, A few large snails

Last edited by Cope; 01/11/2008 at 02:43 AM.
  #6  
Old 01/11/2008, 05:43 AM
jamiep jamiep is offline
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I've my chemistry exam on monday so excuse me for not wanting to read all of that!

Are you 100% your tap water has copper in it? And how much?

I think copper in our tanks need to be in a high concentration for alot of inverts. Now thats is NOT me saying - aye just fire in as much copper to your DT as you want or "a little wont hurt". What I mean is your tap water if the water is just passing quickly through a copper pipe, might not leach into it that much.

Another argument is that the copper we use as medicine is called non chelated (pronounced Key-Late) copper which is a type of molecular bonding (read more on chelation here on wikipedia - its quite intresting!) This type of copper is less stable than chelated copper generally so when we get copper in our tanks in small amounts it may be chelated, decreasing its reactivity. Also the copper in our medicine is a really really deep blue, and my experence tells me that that is really really concentrated!

Anyone who ever buys tropic marine salt (I think i spelt it wrong) look down the side of what all it contains and you will find....COPPER! !!

So my conclusion is that it takes more than a small amount of copper to upset your inverts, but I wouldn't try and add it too much on purpose because its likly to build up over time.

And also - get a QT tank. If you cant get a tank, get a heater, powerhead and a bucket!

Oh yea roll on the chemistry!
  #7  
Old 01/11/2008, 08:10 AM
Swanwillow Swanwillow is offline
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I'm using tap until I get a RO/DI unit. (which is this month)

I personally think that you probably don't have copper. IF you have copper pipes, run the water for a few minutes before you use the water in your tank, and you'd be fine.
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  #8  
Old 01/11/2008, 08:43 AM
taillonjohn taillonjohn is offline
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"1b. I guess I need two QT tanks? One for my fish and one for my inverts and shrooms?"

you only need one QT tank. Only fish get ick, so they need to be put into the QT tank. Your corals and inverts wont get ick, but they carry the ick parasite on their bodies, its on everything in your tank, but the parasite needs a fish host to live, and must find the host within 28 days or it days.

So that means, put your fish in QT for a month, leave your main tank empty for a month, and you'll be fine then to put the fish back into the tank. (PS - just to be safe, I waited one extra week, but one month is fine according to my research)
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  #9  
Old 01/11/2008, 10:03 AM
steri steri is offline
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I could be wrong, but most tap water doesn't havea lot of copper in it. If it does, I'm sure the levels are too small to combat issues such as ich. I'm sure the small amounts of copper annoy the inverts and shrooms, but if they are surviving, then they are leaning to cope with their environment. Shrooms are extremely hearty anyways. You could probably thrown an M80 on them, and they would still live

Using tap water is not really a sin, but (as you have probably found) more of a pain. You can use tap water in your tank with no problem, but because you don't know what is in the water (metals, minerals, chlorine, phosphates, ect) most people have to use a few chemicals in their water to make it so it will work well, which tends to be more of a pain then using an RO unit or RO water.

People that tend to use tap water tend to have more algae problems and what not, but that doesn't mean the water is "bad." It just means the water has other additives in it that you have to treat for.

So, mushrooms and inverts can live in tap water, as long as it's treated because copper levels are usually too low to really hinder the animal, and the the Chlorine is usually taken care of by chemicals you put in the tap water. That's what will mostly hurt your inverts and shrooms (chlorine and copper). Other stuff (phosphates, ect), can just make the tank look bad with algae blooms, but you just have to be able and willing to deal with that if tap is the way you plan to go.

You're not the only sinner out there I may use RO/DI water, but I don't have a QT either.

I hope some of that helps.
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  #10  
Old 01/11/2008, 10:22 AM
m2434 m2434 is offline
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Q1. If my tap watter has copper in it, why do my inverts and shrooms thrive?

A1. - Accumulation can take time, the biggest issue is top off water. With water changes, you remove as much crap as your putting in and the effect balances. With top-offs, the water evaporates, but the copper doesn't, so when you add water, you are adding copper too. The result is a net gain in copper (and all sorts of other garbage) - slowly, but surely. This is enhanced by the fact that copper will accumulate in the rocks and sand etc.. an is not necessarily removed by water changes. Once saturated, it may start to leach out.

Wait a year or two and then test for copper

Q2. If my tap watter has copper in it why do I still battle ICK?

My tank now has ICK so....

A2. You probably have low amounts in your tap water, it could take years to accumulate to a significant level.

1b. I guess I need two QT tanks? One for my fish and one for my inverts and shrooms?

A1b. Not a bad idea.
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  #11  
Old 01/11/2008, 10:34 AM
steri steri is offline
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BTW, since I didn't have a QT, when my tank had ich, I used a UV sterilizer, and I dosed my food with Garlic Xtreme every time I fed. I kept the UV on for a month. Ich was not noticable after 10 days. The garlic Xtreme keep the fish eating and kept their immune systems as strong as possible. I lost zero fish.

My point in saying that, is that there are ways to combat ich without having a QT, although a QT is probably better.

Just don't use "Reef Safe" medications for ich. I've used three different ones prior to the method explained above, and IMO, all "reef safe" ich medications are cr@p!
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Livestock:
Rock Beauty Angel
Flame Angel
2 Firefish Gobies
Occ. Percula Clownfish
Blue Hepatus Tang
Blue Sided Wrasse
Purple Line Dottyback
Fire Shrimp, Cleaner Shrimp
  #12  
Old 01/11/2008, 12:31 PM
Cope Cope is offline
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Just so we are all clear on this.....
I've been using tap watter in this tank for around ten years. same rock.


I had not lost a fish or ant invert in years untill a new LFS opened up, I bought a powder brown tang.... guess what.... ALL my fish died..

My mandy ( that I raised w no fuge/ refugium for five years)
So now there is ick in my tank and life is harsh.
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Fishies.. 2 perc. clowns @ 1.5", cromis 1 @ 1", PJ cardinal 2 @ 1.5", Blue hippo tang 1@ 1.5", Star goby 1 @ 2.5", Yellow watchmen goby 1 @ 1.5", Fire fish 1 @ 2.5" Inverts. CB large, Cleaner shrimp 1 @ 2.5", Peppermint shrimp 5 @ 1" to 2", Naz snails 10, A few large snails
  #13  
Old 01/11/2008, 12:37 PM
Cope Cope is offline
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In the futuer How long should I qt if I use copper in my QT, I would like to get the fish in the DT as soon as I can?
Thanks for all replies and help
Cope

Maby not as much of a simmer as I thought?

Any one else want to confess?

Feels good!
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Fishies.. 2 perc. clowns @ 1.5", cromis 1 @ 1", PJ cardinal 2 @ 1.5", Blue hippo tang 1@ 1.5", Star goby 1 @ 2.5", Yellow watchmen goby 1 @ 1.5", Fire fish 1 @ 2.5" Inverts. CB large, Cleaner shrimp 1 @ 2.5", Peppermint shrimp 5 @ 1" to 2", Naz snails 10, A few large snails
 

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