Closed Loop vs. Vortech Propeller Pumps

[Albright]

Hi everyone. I'm in the very beginning stages of researching and planning a fairly large (300g-500g) reef system in which I hope to house a variety of corals (soft as well as LPS and SPS) as well as a variety of fish and inverts.

I was planning on doing a closed loop system using oceans motions to distribute the flow when I came across the Vortech pumps ( http://www.ecotechmarine.com/products/vortech.htm )

Would I be silly to use these pumps on a system where I have no problem setting up a closed loop? Is there any advantage to the closed loop or the Vortechs that anyone has run into vs. the other option?

Am I possibly way off base and I should be using a mix of both for one reason rather than one or the other?

And for my stupid question of the day... I notice many closed loop systems originate from bulkheads on the rear wall of the aquarium rather than from an overflow. Is there a danger of fish/inverts/etc. being drawn into these openings with the amount of suction going on? If so, what is typically done to prevent this.

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated! As mention I'm in the very beginning stages of planning this and I'm doing a lot of research prior rather than making a lot of mistakes along the way. But I'm sure I'll still make many!

I hope to detail the build of this system here as well as on its own web page once it begins which will certainly be at least a couple of months from now.

[silverwolf72]

Cl vs vortec is mainly visual( do you want power heads in tank).Plus the Vortec pumps are not aimable.
Screens to keep fish from getting sucked up on CL. Overflows will not generally have the room or the ability to handle the flow of a closed loop.
I love the OM unit I have even though my tank is still empty but from the flow I've seen it gives me tons of random water flow

[Albright]

Originally posted by silverwolf72
Cl vs vortec is mainly visual( do you want power heads in tank).Plus the Vortec pumps are not aimable.
Screens to keep fish from getting sucked up on CL. Overflows will not generally have the room or the ability to handle the flow of a closed loop.
I love the OM unit I have even though my tank is still empty but from the flow I've seen it gives me tons of random water flow

Thanks SilverWolf.

It sounds like you would go for the CL over the Vortechs and I think I may be still leaning that way also.

Thanks for answering the stupid question also

[DaveG99]

you should also consider noise, heat from the pumps, and possabilities to have leaks problems. Withe the vortech there is little noise, no heat generated, and no plumbing to have a possability of leaks and issues not to mention taking up room under the stand.

[nyvp]

vortecs and powerheads are always much more efficient

[Albright]

Space definitely won't be an issue. Heat shouldn't be as a chiller won't be a problem and will most likely be included regardless. Leaks of course would always be a headache.

When you say more efficient, in what way do you mean? Power consumption?

[davefan13]

with poweheads you will be able to direct water flow in the direction that you want with ease. With closed loops, on the other hand, have many different flaws. First, do you plan to have the returns from the back of the tank or from over the top? in both instances, the outlets furthest from the pump will have a somewhat low return rate becuase the water will drop off into the first outlets. (if you are using an oceans motions, this may eliminate that problem, but i don't have any experience with them). For powerheads, the vortechs are driven magnetically from the outside of the tank, virtually eliminating heat coming from powerheads. Also, with powerheads, you can aim them in the direction that you want your flow to go, and it will be there. With a closed loop, on the other hand can't be aimed up/down as easily.

hope this helps. also, those vortechs are like 300 ea, i am guessing that you are not sparing any expense on this system

[RichConley]

Originally posted by Albright
Space definitely won't be an issue. Heat shouldn't be as a chiller won't be a problem and will most likely be included regardless. Leaks of course would always be a headache.

When you say more efficient, in what way do you mean? Power consumption?

A 3600 gph sequence dart uses 160w. A 3000+ gph tunze/vortech uses about 30w. Thats a TON of electricity difference.

At $.15/kwh, we're talking like $15/month saved PER PUMP.


As to heat, the vortechs add very little to your tank, but the whole "add none" thing is bull. Anything that moves water creates heat via friction.

[hatfielj]

I agree with richconley in that the electrical costs of a vortech vs. a CL is a big plus for the vortechs. Plus, all the plumbing necessary for a CL is quite a headache and a potential area for leaks. Vortechs are awesome pumps and look much better than a bunch of pvc or locline hanging down in the tank IMO. I have a vortech and I don't think you can beat the flow it offers for the price and ease of setting up. And again, very little heat added to the tank and much lower electrical consumption.

[mope54]

Originally posted by RichConley
A 3600 gph sequence dart uses 160w. A 3000+ gph tunze/vortech uses about 30w. Thats a TON of electricity difference.

At $.15/kwh, we're talking like $15/month saved PER PUMP.


As to heat, the vortechs add very little to your tank, but the whole "add none" thing is bull. Anything that moves water creates heat via friction.

But calculate that dart with some eductors and see how much closer the power consumption becomes

[Albright]

Thanks for keeping the feedback coming. The two sides sound like what is going on in my head

I'm still leaning towards the CL. I feel it will provide a bit more flexibility of getting the flow to where I want it especially with the OM.

The sump/primary filtration/skimming/etc. will be located in the basement so this would leave only the closed loop plumbing/pump underneath the display tank itself. I would still dread a leak but it should make working with it a fair amount easier than in a system where everything is contained directly under the tank. I have seen some here tho which are all underneath and very neatly laid out

As this will be very near to a wall and only viewable from the front I'm thinking of having both the input and the output of the CL in the bottom of the tank. The returns would mostly be within and poking out of the LR structures.

[xtrstangx]

When you do the cost caulculations on the closed loop, don't forget the union ball valves that you are supposed to have on every bulkhead. When I was planning my setup I would've ended up paying more for plumbing pieces than I would for the pump!

I'd go for good pumps (Vortechs or Tunze Streams)... Thats what I did and I'm really glad I did. I love my Tunze Streams, the multicontroller rocks and they are more adjustable than the Vortechs.

[DaveG99]

vortech/tunze benefits..........


better looks
efficiency
easier to set up
least likely to have leaks
no hole drilling
quieter

the choice should be simple.

[pledosophy]

I prefer the closed loop. I have it plumbed so I can change flow pattern through the turn of a bulkhead. I have spraybars under the rocks and through the back wall. Having the option to change the flow paterns so easily is a huge plus for me. I also like that all the returns from the closed loop are fairly hidden, except for one of the loc line returns toward the top of the tank, so I don't have to look at the powerheads.

My CL pump only uses 50w, but also only pushes around 1000 gph.

HTH

[King-Kong]

Originally posted by RichConley
...Anything that moves water creates heat via friction.

Are you serious? Are you actually suggesting that the FRICTION of the water on surfaces inside of the tank adds enough heat that we would actually notice?

Come on Rich.. that's just being silly, now.

[Kaiser Tang]

I actually use both. I wanted to do something with my return line, so I hooked it up to a OM. But I needed and little more flow so I added two vortechs. I'll be doing real good when the vortechs become controllable.

[HBtank]

Originally posted by RichConley
A 3600 gph sequence dart uses 160w. A 3000+ gph tunze/vortech uses about 30w. Thats a TON of electricity difference.

At $.15/kwh, we're talking like $15/month saved PER PUMP.


As to heat, the vortechs add very little to your tank, but the whole "add none" thing is bull. Anything that moves water creates heat via friction.

LMAO, you gotta be kidding. Next you will be telling us to calculate the friction of fish swimming.

[RichConley]

Originally posted by King-Kong
Are you serious? Are you actually suggesting that the FRICTION of the water on surfaces inside of the tank adds enough heat that we would actually notice?

Come on Rich.. that's just being silly, now.

A tunze 6060 moves 1800 gph for what, 11w?

How much is motor inefficiency? Maybe 3w? So that leaves us with 8w that is moving water. So 8 watts goes into ACCELERATING water. You know what slows down that water, so that your tank doesnt accelerate to the point that the water all hops out? Friction. So yeah, if you've got 8w of pump moving water, you've got 8w of friction heat.


Yes, friction can be a LARGE part of pump heat.


Edit: Just did some research. DC motors run from 50%-90% efficient. So in your 30w Tunze, from 3-15w is directly wasted as heat. The rest become water movement, which is then converted, via friction, to heat. So, from 15-27w of HEAT is added to the tank via friction.

With the Vortech, its listed as 35w. I'd assume, say, 40% effiency (less because its through glass), so we're still talking about 14w being lost as heat, via friction, IN THE TANK.

[RichConley]

Originally posted by mope54
But calculate that dart with some eductors and see how much closer the power consumption becomes

Not even close.

160w of dart, for 3000gph.

Put eductors on it, you get what, 5000gph? (its NOT a pressure pump, and can't properly drive eductors)


For 160w, we can run 2x Tunze 6200, and 1x 6100, for a total of 14000 gph.

[mope54]

well, I did space it on the dart not being pressure rated, but other pumps that are pressure rated do exist...

but given that you're sig lists a 58g and the OP's tank is a 40 gallon, it seems to me that if you put three full sized tunzes in your tank you wouldn't have any space left for rock or corals :O

but he's looking at a 300g-500g tank...so maybe he wants raw power

this kind of argument starts to sound like my older 3er bmw against the american muscle cars...which kind of power is one looking for?


once you get up into the really large sequence pumps, some of whic are pressure rated, putting out 5K+ gph for 300+ watts, and you put the ends on eductors that are estimated to move 5x+ the flow...

well then you are moving near 30K GPH in the tank and to match that you'd need at least 5 6200's. which would also be right around 300+ watts, and a pile of space...so once you go really large it seems like the efficiency of PH's break down

[samsfishnchips]

Originally posted by RichConley
Not even close.

160w of dart, for 3000gph.

Put eductors on it, you get what, 5000gph? (its NOT a pressure pump, and can't properly drive eductors)


For 160w, we can run 2x Tunze 6200, and 1x 6100, for a total of 14000 gph.

Rich,

I think he meant, that by putting penductors, you increase head pressure therefore less watts used by the pump

and do agree, all pumps add watts to the tank, others more than others but the fact is that all add some

sam

[Timbo]

Originally posted by RichConley

Edit: Just did some research. DC motors run from 50%-90% efficient. So in your 30w Tunze, from 3-15w is directly wasted as heat. The rest become water movement, which is then converted, via friction, to heat. So, from 15-27w of HEAT is added to the tank via friction.

With the Vortech, its listed as 35w. I'd assume, say, 40% effiency (less because its through glass), so we're still talking about 14w being lost as heat, via friction, IN THE TANK.

You are correct, the average BRUSHLESS DC motor will be approximately 50% efficient or greater at turning input power into output power. The input power which is not converted into output power is shed as heat. However, power is power, whether shed directly as heat or converted into mechanical motion, a watt introduced into your tank from a powerhead is no different than a watt introduced into your tank from a heater.

A VorTech is actually more efficient than a 6100 in terms of the flow produced compared to the wattage consumed, as it uses ~32watts and generates 3000gph versus a Stream 6100 which consumes 45watts and produces 3100gph.

With a VorTech, the motor is outside the tank, meaning the energy shed directly from the motor as a result of inefficiencies is outside the tank. If the VorTech is 50% efficient and consumes 32 watts, that means that 16watts shed as HEAT is outside the tank. The rest of the wattage used as mechanical motion is found within the motor and within the wetted side of the VorTech. So it would be comparable to a completely submersed 16watt power head which produced 3000gph. Good look finding one of those.

A 6100 Stream inputs ALL 45watts into the tank. Period, whether its converted as flow or heat, any powerhead inputs ALL of its input wattage into the aquarium. Some are just better at converting more of that wattage into flow meaning you get more flow per watt that you input.

Let me say it again, a 20 watt powerhead is no different than a 20watt heater, it doesn't matter whether its a prop pump or an impeller pump. The exception being a VorTech, because the motor is outside the tank it will input approximately half of the power into your aquarium that a fully submersed pump will.

[sabbath]

If you would like to see how much heat an external pump makes, You can. Take one and run it with as little hose as you can, like maybe 1.5' Filled with water and come back in an hour or so and feel the hose. It gets warm or hot depending on pump size.
Power heads gets hot too. I heat my salt mix this way.

[RichConley]

Timbo, thats exactly my point.


The claims that the vortech adds no heat are absolute crap. Less heat than a Tunze, yes, but not even close to "none"

[Timbo]

Glad we agree on something!

But from any of the posts I've ever seen you make, you never actually acknowledge that a VorTech is actually inputting substantially less heat than a 6100. You always make it sound moot. 15w versus 45w is closer to a third of the heat input of a 6100.

Also, I quote this from EcoTech's webpage:

"The VorTech induces very little heat into the aquarium because of EcoTech Marine's patent pending magnetically coupled design which transfers motion through the glass, but not heat"

Doesn't sound like ETM is claiming it induces no heat.