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  #51  
Old 12/09/2004, 02:30 AM
rsman rsman is offline
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The BioBall limited surface area might be the limiting factor for your DIY denitrator here.
as long as the coil length is chosen correctly (in a correct ratio of diameter to length) its really not, the amount of surface area required is soo small that the pipe holding the bio-balls alone is close to enough

With either substrate you should be able to increase the flow rate too.
many ppl ive replied to should increase the flow rate and make no other changes, most dont push there denitrators to anywhere near there limits, then complain that they dont work well enough.

The original Seachem recommeded flow rate for Denitrate is <50g/h.
im not gona go hunting but if i recall correctly that flow rate is for that media in an open flow, not in a denitrator, with that flow rate you are hoping to process nitrate passively like live rock does, a functioning coil denitrator will remove all of the nitrate that goes into the unit. instead of some of it.

And if the coiled tube didn't consume all O2 with higher flow, the bottom layer substrate will.
unfortunately when this happens the entire chamber is effected, while some higher density media might still passively remove nitrate the chamber itself wont and you will have nitrate in your water

another minor issue to consider when experimenting is that if you have too much surface area for the flow rate of the coil you will create hydrogen sulfate gas, a bad thing.
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  #52  
Old 12/09/2004, 04:48 AM
usjaz usjaz is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by rsman
as long as the coil length is chosen correctly (in a correct ratio of diameter to length) its really not, the amount of surface area required is soo small that the pipe holding the bio-balls alone is close to enough
That is assuming that only the coiled tube is doing the nitrification processing (removing O2).

Could it be that the limiting fact here is precisely the assumption that only the coiled tube should perform nitrification?

Quote:
many ppl ive replied to should increase the flow rate and make no other changes, most dont push there denitrators to anywhere near there limits, then complain that they dont work well enough.
Right. But even with a proper flow rate, The processing ability of the denitrator is still quite limited considering the amount of space it takes IMO. How can we improve it?

Quote:

im not gona go hunting but if i recall correctly that flow rate is for that media in an open flow, not in a denitrator, with that flow rate you are hoping to process nitrate passively like live rock does, a functioning coil denitrator will remove all of the nitrate that goes into the unit. instead of some of it.
That's a flow thru rate that will cause the media to act as both aerobic on the surface and anaerobic media at the core. see http://www.seachem.com/home/ProductSpotlight3.html

To get complete anaerobic filter in this application a lower rate is needed. I did say that in my post. And if a significant increased denitrification ability can be realized by utilizing these substrate, then one should, and need to, increase the feed rate to supply the sufficient nitrate.

Quote:

unfortunately when this happens the entire chamber is effected, while some higher density media might still passively remove nitrate the chamber itself wont and you will have nitrate in your water
I guess this is the part I don't understand. I am not sure if I understand why. The flow rate is low enough that water rise up very slowly from the bottom of the chamber , filtering thru a relative denser substrate? (Again, we are not using the bioballs which are much much less dense, thus under a given flow rate, much less likely to host aerobic and anaerobic process at the same time, it will host one or another depends on the flow rate and O2 availibility).

You think there is still not enough contact time w/ these new substrate?


Could the DSB be an counter example in a reversed direction? The top layer is aerobic, and the bottom layer is anaerobic. The rate water penetrate down to the deeper layer of sand is anologous the flow rate of denitrator penetrating up towards the effluent port, in the opposite direction? The obvious key is to use a rate that is slow enough that the aerobic won't overun the aerobic layer? That's not even counting the proneous nature of Denitrate substrate, which should make it more effective aerobically.


And, even *IF* the nitrate is then only removed by the core of Denitrate substrate. *IF* (to be experiemented) denitrifying at a more efficient rate, does it really matter if the chamber is not complete anaerobic? It wouldn't.
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Last edited by usjaz; 12/09/2004 at 05:32 AM.
  #53  
Old 12/09/2004, 09:24 AM
niko5 niko5 is offline
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rsman, by duel coils you meen like take 75' or ice maker tubeing and coil it up then take another 75' and coil it inside of that coil and have 2 inputs for the denitrator?

would 150 feet be to much for a 125 gal tank? In say 6" pipe 2' tall?
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  #54  
Old 12/09/2004, 09:25 AM
niko5 niko5 is offline
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You know something else that would be need it an O2 sensor at the base of the unit where the water comes out of the coils then you can adjust the denitrator perfectly
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  #55  
Old 12/09/2004, 10:22 AM
FireEater FireEater is offline
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I'm also searching around for the right size and length of hose to use to build one for a 125g setup, keeping in mine I also have a 29g refugium and 30g sump.

So I guess I need to build one for 184g's.

Mark
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  #56  
Old 12/09/2004, 12:18 PM
Gem Tang Rider Gem Tang Rider is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by niko5
prugs, did you have no nitrate in your tank before or after you installed the coil? If you had some nitrates before what were they and how long did it take for them to go down.
Before I had a coil denitrator, I had to do biweekly water changes to keep the nitrates below 40ppm. Now I do water changes once a month, & they never get over 10ppm.

I should really have a dedicated pump for the denitrator. Right now I just have a Tee off of a rena filstar cannister. Even with the valve full open on the top of the denitrator, I only get 1-2 drops/sec.

I am not sure what type of pump to get. The water going thru all that tubing creates quite abit of resistance to flow. Also the denitrator sits on the floor, & the top of the tank is over 5' tall where the return is to the skimmer.
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  #57  
Old 12/09/2004, 12:42 PM
niko5 niko5 is offline
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Mark, my tank is very simmilar to yours in total volume so let me know if you find something as far as lengths of coil.
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  #58  
Old 12/09/2004, 02:58 PM
rsman rsman is offline
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usjaz
That is assuming that only the coiled tube is doing the nitrification processing (removing O2).
Could it be that the limiting fact here is precisely the assumption that only the coiled tube should perform nitrification?


ok so first off your seeing some kind of limit? that im not. if the bacteria in the coil are exposed to oxygen they will switch from aerobic to anaerobic (they do that) the results are nitrite.

Right. But even with a proper flow rate, The processing ability of the denitrator is still quite limited considering the amount of space it takes IMO. How can we improve it?
by sizing your coil denitrator for the job, look back over this thread at .170ID a length of only 50' is enough yet there are several different posts with people using 75', for whatever reason they feel. also if space is an issue dont use 2 tons of bio-balls 4 6 or even 8 is enough, the important part of the equasion is a slower but not stalled flow rate across some media.

I did say that in my post. And if a significant increased denitrification ability can be realized by utilizing these substrate, then one should, and need to, increase the feed rate to supply the sufficient nitrate
it cant, and you are creating stalled space, that is areas where the flow stops, at that point hydrogen sulfate is created, this will kill your tank. nitrate is not the only requirement of the bacteria, they breeth nitrate but still have to consume carbon.

And, even *IF* the nitrate is then only removed by the core of Denitrate substrate. *IF* (to be experiemented) denitrifying at a more efficient rate, does it really matter if the chamber is not complete anaerobic? It wouldn't.
except you cant control that. it wont be stable, itll be like any other denitrator that doesnt use the coil. there are a few you can search for them.


niko5

rsman, by duel coils you meen like take 75' or ice maker tubeing and coil it up then take another 75' and coil it inside of that coil and have 2 inputs for the denitrator?
thats the basics of it, if you have a really high bio-load feel free to use 3 coils instead of 2.

would 150 feet be to much for a 125 gal tank? In say 6" pipe 2' tall?
nope, and no need to go to a 6" pipe feel free to stay with 3"

it all really depends on bio-load, if you want to get more get a larger diameter tubing with a longer length, and though my tank has kinda crashed while i was away with only 5 fish left out of 12 my 125 FO was chuging along on 3 50' coils, a list of the nastiest fish there was a large sailfin tang and still a picasso trigger and a lunar wrase, the rest were kinda standard like a GSM clown, jewel damsel.

there hasnt been a working skimmer in a while and there is no LR (ok like 4lbs in the display ) and there is a huge DIY bio-wheel nitrates have not been a problem in a while, and i dont do waterchanges.


You know something else that would be need it an O2 sensor at the base of the unit where the water comes out of the coils then you can adjust the denitrator perfectly
ooh yea there you go complicate it even more testing for nitrite and nitrate will do just fine.
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  #59  
Old 12/09/2004, 03:38 PM
FireEater FireEater is offline
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rsman, Thanks for all the great posts on this subject. You have helped me a lot in building mine and setting it up properly.

I will begin on it today.

Mark
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  #60  
Old 12/10/2004, 02:51 PM
Longarço Longarço is offline
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Hi everybody, i would to know, what's the pump i need? How many gal/h?
Thank's for any help and sorry my poor english!!!
  #61  
Old 12/10/2004, 03:02 PM
rsman rsman is offline
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longarco
you will have to give us more information, like what size coil denitrator, and how its plumbed like from in the tank to a lower sump, or any other information, there is a chance you dont need a pump.
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  #62  
Old 12/10/2004, 04:38 PM
Silencer Silencer is offline
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This is interesting. I'm wondering if this would work with an acrylic tube or if algae would grow and cause clogging/failure.
  #63  
Old 12/10/2004, 04:54 PM
rsman rsman is offline
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algae isnt the problem, those that are in acrylic tubes as an outer container either use colored acrylic or an inner pvc piece (often doubling as a support for the coil itself) to block the bio material from light, light itself reduces the effect of the bacteria.
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  #64  
Old 12/13/2004, 09:35 AM
Longarço Longarço is offline
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Hi rsman,
I'll use in a 7g minibow with 1g back sump.
My intencion is put the coil denitrator hang on the sump our in the sump, so, that the reason of the pump.
I think use a 4 inches pvc, 10 inches tall.
Can i use silicone air tube?
What's the pump a need?
Thank's for any help!!
Sorry my english, i hope you understand!!!
  #65  
Old 12/13/2004, 01:31 PM
rsman rsman is offline
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ooh cool i used to have one on a 7g minibow.

most silicone tubing is bad its too soft.

if you want a small one you can get some tubing at a model shop its teflon and narrow, you can use 2 20' lengths wrap it inside a 2" piece of pvc and add 4 bio balls total length is like 8" which is shorter than the minibow.

even is you do choose to use .170ID or .250ID tubing you can power them with anypower head the low flow rate will allow you to use most pumps for both the coil and waterflow.
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  #66  
Old 12/13/2004, 05:13 PM
Silencer Silencer is offline
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Does the light effect both types of bacteria or only one? For example if you ran the tubing coil on the outside of a pvc tube exposed to light, but the bioball reaction chamber was inside the opaque pvc, would this be ok? Or would the light harm the coil bacteria too that remove oxygen? Or is it the other way around maybe, and the bioball chamber could be exposed to light but the coil should be hidden.

The other question is what is the radio of tube inner diameter to required coil length? For a larger tank you could run multiple small coils or a few coils with larger tubing and I'm curious which would be more compact and easy to deal with (since with multiple small coils you have multiple connections and more hassle/complexity).
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  #67  
Old 12/13/2004, 06:01 PM
rsman rsman is offline
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Does the light effect both types of bacteria or only one?
only one

For example if you ran the tubing coil on the outside of a pvc tube exposed to light, but the bioball reaction chamber was inside the opaque pvc, would this be ok?
this is generally how its done, this is the order some even use the tubing to block the light from the rest of the bio chamber


Or would the light harm the coil bacteria too that remove oxygen? Or is it the other way around maybe, and the bioball chamber could be exposed to light but the coil should be hidden.
indirectly light is bad for the entire coil, the reasons just change.
EX the coil. its narrow, the nitrate is not low yet, the oxygen is low and co2 is high, add light and you get algae which will clog the coil
EX the bio chamber. though the nitrate is low algae will still grow, it takes that co2 and re adds oxygen, which effects the bacteria, but the bacteria are also light sensitive.

The other question is what is the radio of tube inner diameter to required coil length?

its complex larger diameters require a much longer length, not only is the ratio of surface area to water different but the bacteria only grow on the surface of the tubing which means your water needs to move further to help it work

For a larger tank you could run multiple small coils or a few coils with larger tubing and I'm curious which would be more compact and easy to deal with (since with multiple small coils you have multiple connections and more hassle/complexity).
generally its always more effecient to run more than 1 coil connected to the same bio chamber. the only significant hassle is when you are cycling the unit. how many you run, and how large a coil you use is dependant on system volume and nitrate rise.
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  #68  
Old 12/14/2004, 03:52 PM
DerrickBrown DerrickBrown is offline
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Would a 500' coil in 3' or 4' tall cylinder and 4" diameter be too much for a 125g? If not what would the drip rate be?

Would (2) 250' coils with one outlet be a better choice?

Seems more water would be processed with a longer length. Also a faster flow rate could be allowed which would in turn move more water through the denitrator which would allow the tank to be turned over more often that would decrease the nitrates overall. The output would be reoxygenated through a trickle filter with liverock, so the oxygen level in the water should not be a concern before returning to the main display tank.

I'm I on the totally wrong path or semi wrong?

Thanks

Last edited by DerrickBrown; 12/14/2004 at 04:15 PM.
  #69  
Old 12/15/2004, 02:07 AM
rsman rsman is offline
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Seems more water would be processed with a longer length
NO NO NO NO

wrong direction!!!!

the coil has to be the correct size, larger diameter = longer coil, and its a heavy curve you double the diameter you almost tripple the length, dont experiment until you understand that, the results are BAD!!!, not trying to scare you away from building a coil denitrator, just be careful

next thing, of all the water that goes into the coil ALL of the nitrates are removed (assume its working)

so how high of a bio load are you expecting,
a 2 coil unit using .170ID tubing 50' long will process aprox 8gph, you can do the math you do know that its not the same as a 192 gallon water change each day, as itll reduce the nitrate but itll mix and its kinda the same as frequent small changes but its going on 24/7, think you will need more processing power add more coils. now if its a breeding type of setup or another very high bio load setup, you can up the diameter and the length to process more but you add some $$ and up the process rate to way high.

<< side note hijacking the thread for a moment >>
Interests: Reefs, Model Airplanes
whatcha fly ???

my 3 favs are my modified spirit to 3m wingspan, a tallon, and a beachcraft bonanza.
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  #70  
Old 12/15/2004, 07:20 AM
DerrickBrown DerrickBrown is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by rsman
Seems more water would be processed with a longer length
NO NO NO NO

wrong direction!!!!

the coil has to be the correct size, larger diameter = longer coil, and its a heavy curve you double the diameter you almost tripple the length, dont experiment until you understand that, the results are BAD!!!, not trying to scare you away from building a coil denitrator, just be careful

next thing, of all the water that goes into the coil ALL of the nitrates are removed (assume its working)


No problem, you didn't scare me. I have built a denitrator for my 55 gal. 75' with 1/4" OD, 1/8" ID. It is still cycling, but I have tested the output and the nitrates are practically 0, but the nitrites are up right now to 1-2 ppm, with a drip/sec. I have a few more weeks left before the cycling completes.

My DIY Coil Deni is about 11-12" tall with a 4" diameter.. I have bioballs inside also. I have only 6-8 balls inside if I can remember correctly. That is all that would fit. Is this setup enough for the 55 gal or do I need to make a taller unit to hold more media? I want to process as much as a can without causing problems.

so how high of a bio load are you expecting,
a 2 coil unit using .170ID tubing 50' long will process aprox 8gph, you can do the math you do know that its not the same as a 192 gallon water change each day, as itll reduce the nitrate but itll mix and its kinda the same as frequent small changes but its going on 24/7, think you will need more processing power add more coils. now if its a breeding type of setup or another very high bio load setup, you can up the diameter and the length to process more but you add some $$ and up the process rate to way high.


How do you calculate the gph rating? I haven't added anything up, but does a drop/sec = 8gph or 8gpd.

A buddy has a 125gal and we are trying to come up with a denitrator that will handle his tank with ease. The tank doesn't have a heavy load now, but that will change over time and the right setup is needed.

So, if the diameter is doubled, then triple the length? ok

I read on reeflougne.com that once a DIY coil deni has cycled, you can open the valve up for free flow of water. I was always under the impression that it had to stay roughly a drip/sec or a little faster (steady drip, but still a drip), but not full flow. This wasn't correct was it?

<< side note hijacking the thread for a moment >>
Interests: Reefs, Model Airplanes
whatcha fly ???

my 3 favs are my modified spirit to 3m wingspan, a tallon, and a beachcraft bonanza.


I do like the Bonanza.

I have a Superstar 40 (46FX), FourStar 60 (YS .91FZ), Superstick 40 (46FX), Fat Free Taco (Saito 40), Funtana S 90 (YS 1.10FZ), Katana 1.40 (YS 1.40DZ), a few gliders and electrics all using a Futaba 9C radio.
  #71  
Old 12/15/2004, 12:56 PM
rsman rsman is offline
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but the nitrites are up right now to 1-2 ppm, with a drip/sec.
its going to fast slow it down.

How do you calculate the gph rating?
this time experience, otherwise dificult math

I haven't added anything up, but does a drop/sec = 8gph or 8gpd.
nope

I read on reeflougne.com that once a DIY coil deni has cycled, you can open the valve up for free flow of water. I was always under the impression that it had to stay roughly a drip/sec or a little faster (steady drip, but still a drip), but not full flow. This wasn't correct was it?
free flow is such a complicated thing, but yes that is correct as it cycles you should be slowly speeding it up, until its going quite fast. using gravity alone you probibly wont get 100% effieicncy, as you can often push the water just a bit faster, but to get 100% or anywhere near there takes more work settling for 80% by using gravity and just "opening it up" is a nice comprimise. also the once a DIY coil deni has cycled it should be as the CD is cycling

a few gliders and electrics all using a Futaba 9C radio
cool im using a few radios my flash 5 is my current fav, i have a futaba 6something 50mhz but its older and lacks some of the features.
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  #72  
Old 12/15/2004, 02:05 PM
DerrickBrown DerrickBrown is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by rsman
Quote:
but the nitrites are up right now to 1-2 ppm, with a drip/sec.
its going to fast slow it down.
I will slow the flow as you recommend. I thought the NO2 spike was normal during the cycling process as the colonies were forming or trying to form. I'll slow it down today.


Quote:
How do you calculate the gph rating?
this time experience, otherwise dificult math
I figured as much about the math. I thought you may have had a simple technique that I could use. I can always measure the output for 15 mins in a measured container, then multiply this by 4, then by 24 to give me the amount for the day. I can convert this amount into gals or any other measurement I need.


Quote:
I haven't added anything up, but does a drop/sec = 8gph or 8gpd.
nope
I knew this wasn't the case. I was trying to see where the 8gph came from.


Quote:
I read on reeflougne.com that once a DIY coil deni has cycled, you can open the valve up for free flow of water. I was always under the impression that it had to stay roughly a drip/sec or a little faster (steady drip, but still a drip), but not full flow. This wasn't correct was it?
free flow is such a complicated thing, but yes that is correct as it cycles you should be slowly speeding it up, until its going quite fast. using gravity alone you probibly wont get 100% effieicncy, as you can often push the water just a bit faster, but to get 100% or anywhere near there takes more work settling for 80% by using gravity and just "opening it up" is a nice comprimise. also the once a DIY coil deni has cycled it should be as the CD is cycling
This is a new issue for me. I didn't know that you sped up the system once it finishes cycling. I now imagine you open it up as fast as it will go, but still be able to do the converting for the system to work. If nitrites are climbing then it needs to be turned down some. So the drip/sec or slower is only for the cycling process to form the colonies. I got it now. Once the colonies are formed, the flow can be increased. I now understand how 8 gph or 8gpd can be collected.


Quote:
a few gliders and electrics all using a Futaba 9C radio
cool im using a few radios my flash 5 is my current fav, i have a futaba 6something 50mhz but its older and lacks some of the features. [/B]
Hitec makes nice equiptment. I use a ton of their servos and Rx. I thought you may have had the Futaba 6EXA until I saw it was 50 mhZ. I really do like my 9C. I'd love to own the new $2199.00 14 ch. radio with Windows operating system, but that is a whole other discussion board.

Thanks again for the help.
Derrick
  #73  
Old 12/15/2004, 03:08 PM
rsman rsman is offline
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I will slow the flow as you recommend. I thought the NO2 spike was normal during the cycling process as the colonies were forming or trying to form.
its normal, its undesired, the solution is to slow it down

then multiply this by 4, then by 24 to give me the amount for the day. I can convert this amount into gals or any other measurement I need.
well thats how i got my experience by calculate i assumed (i know ... ) that you wanted to guess ahead of time.

This is a new issue for me. I didn't know that you sped up the system once it finishes cycling. I now imagine you open it up as fast as it will go, but still be able to do the converting for the system to work. If nitrites are climbing then it needs to be turned down some. So the drip/sec or slower is only for the cycling process to form the colonies. I got it now. Once the colonies are formed, the flow can be increased. I now understand how 8 gph or 8gpd can be collected.
just to make sure, the speed up should happen DURRING the cycle. if there is nitrate at all in the output you need to adjust the unit. as it cycles you should be slowly speeding it up.

Hitec makes nice equiptment. I use a ton of their servos and Rx. I thought you may have had the Futaba 6EXA until I saw it was 50 mhZ. I really do like my 9C. I'd love to own the new $2199.00 14 ch. radio with Windows operating system, but that is a whole other discussion board.
yea older than the 6exa and yea 50mhz, and WOW that new system is awesome sounding, and yep definately a different board
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  #74  
Old 12/15/2004, 03:12 PM
rsman rsman is offline
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uugh hold on wait stop!!!!

i got it backwards

if you find nitrite then speed up
if you find nitrate then slow down

!!!!
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  #75  
Old 12/15/2004, 06:06 PM
DerrickBrown DerrickBrown is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by rsman
uugh hold on wait stop!!!!

i got it backwards

if you find nitrite then speed up
if you find nitrate then slow down

!!!!
Ok, I'm lost now. I have nitrites forming now (1-2 ppm), so speed up or slow down?

I thought the output should be zero for both and only nitrogen should be the end product.


Quote:
but the nitrites are up right now to 1-2 ppm, with a drip/sec.
its going to fast slow it down.
Speed up? Slow down?
 

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