--75g Barebottom/Starboard Reef Project--

[Travis]

NexDog, is that a koran in your avatar? I got that same fish yesterday from the LFS for my FOWLR. It was labeled as a koran and I checked my book to verify and I thought it looked pretty close. Now that I have it in the tank I checked the book and the picture of the juvenile koran does not look exactly the same so it has me wondering. But whatever the fish in your avatar is, that is what I got.

[arconom]

Travis what do you think my head lose will be do to the 90s?

[arconom]

Travis what do you think my head lose will be do to the 90s? Over all from what you see can you give me a number?

Me and my bro-inlaw learned alot of things we should do next time.

We will be putting DUBVs at each CL return. So that will take care of that problem.

We also totally had all the intentions of using 1.5 all the way up to the last elbow but we scratched it


I didn't even know in a Closed Loop that those 90s would have such a impact.

[arconom]

Well today I came home and filled the tank to check for leaks in the Bulkheads. There was 2, 1 in the intake and 1 one the return. I fixed one and left the other to drip for now. Other then that there was 0 leaks in the fittings and unions.

Moving on to starting up the pump!

First I want to say thanks for all the constructive comments that everyone has told me..

Me and my bro-inlaw have learned alot.

The one question my bro-inlaw would always ask me was "how much pressure would be in the pipes?" PSI and other terms

I would say some pressure, and I'm not to sure.

What we both didn't realize that there is hardly any pressure in the pipes themselves. After showing him pictures after pictures on RC of Closed Loop systems he would say

"why are people using drainage pipes for there plumbing" We both would always see those Y's being used. Then he would show me the difference between the drainage and the pressure fittings.
The main differance is the wall thickness and how much the pipe can be inserted into the fitting itself.

As a plumber would do he made my tank as if it were having pressure. We both wondered how people take this chance of using Spaflex and using drainage fittings. We both said how do people trust it.

Keep the above paragraph in mind for the next story.

So we filled the tank again. He let me plug the pump in and I did. The pump is DEAD SILENT!!!!! HOLY COW is it quiet.

Then the moment of truth

We watched the water flow and stuck are hands in the tank to feel it.

Before the """I TOLD YOU SO"" comes we both have come along way.



So before my bro-inlaw left to go home to pack for his cruise we both looked at each other and said well

"I know now why next time we don't need pressure fittings"
" We know know why people use drainage fittings"
"Man I can't believe those 90s did that"
"WOW I guess we should have done 1.5 all the way until the bulkhead"

He was very upset I told him "look at it this way we both learned something" Whats funny is he isn't even into tanks He just wanted to help me.

So his last words were "Go on RC learn everything you can from those guys and when I come back were doing most of it in SpaFlex'

SO GUYS here comes the questions....To come a little later

[Travis]

You only need SUBV's at the bulkheads so go with those and save a few bucks.

Here is what I get with the head loss calculator on the RC home page. This is assuming you are using roughly 8 feet of 1" pipe, 7 90's, 2 tee's, 6 ball valves, and 7 unions branching off into 5 outlets. It gives me a head loss of 7.5 feet. So plug that into the Dart's performance curve data and you are looking at a max flow of 2000 GPH. However, the head loss calculator does not account for the fact that the dart should be plumbed with 1.5" pipe and you are only using 1". So just guesstimating, I would say you are looking at another 100 - 200gph reduction due to the smaller pipe diameter. This would have been worse had you used 1" to the tees but I see you used 1.5" to the tees so that was good. So my estimation gives you about 1800gph MAX before you start turning your ball valves to tweak the flow. Divide that by 5 and you are getting 360gph at each outlet.

[Travis]

Ok, I just read your last post. It took me 20+ minutes to write that last one so it was referring to your previous post.

It sounds like you are getting less flow than you expected. This is mostly due to 2 reasons. You are using a Dart, which loses a TON of flow from any amount of head pressure. And you are dividing the flow up between 5 separate outlets. You will gain a little flow by using spa flex to replace the 90's but probably not all that much. I guess plumbing is cheap so it wouldn't hurt to change it though. If you are going to redo it I would use 1.5" hard PVC all the way to the 90's. Then use 1.5" long turn 90's and reduce to 1" after the 90. This way you can still use 1" valves, which will save you money. You can use 1.5" spa flex but you are not doing very long runs and it doesn't do sharp bends so I think it will be a lot easier and less frustrating to use pvc and long turn elbows.

BTW, I would not recommend using spa flex with the drain type fittings. Spa flex does not weld like pvc does so you need a little more fitting there for the spa flex to glue to. I have a few spots on my tank where spa flex is connected to long turn elbows, which have the shorter insert fitting and it does make me nervous. If you ever use spa flex and fittings with the shorter inserts I recommend connecting the spa flex to a sch 40 coupling. Then connect the coupling to the fitting with pvc.

[arconom]

I have read so many good things about about the Dart. I see people use the Dart for CLs all the time. I guess I should have went with a Pressure rated pump? I'm most upset with choosing the wrong pump.

After I started thinking I said " I know why most people only use 4 CL exits and not more. I can remedy that by cutting it off completlly via DUBV.

But Will that give me much more ?

I see now I have a combination of problems. But is my main problem the pump itself

[arconom]

Travis what would you do? Am I going to replumb it and still be unimpressed? I planned on turining off that 1 CL exit Via DUBV.

Ok 1800 divided by 4 would give me 450. What kind of numbers do people strive for per CL return in a CL setup? What is a good GPH per exit? Do you think I am chasing after GPH that I will never get from my dart?

What would you say is acceptable in my situation?

Basically Travis, I don't want to fool myself.

[NexDog]

Originally posted by Travis
NexDog, is that a koran in your avatar? I got that same fish yesterday from the LFS for my FOWLR. It was labeled as a koran and I checked my book to verify and I thought it looked pretty close. Now that I have it in the tank I checked the book and the picture of the juvenile koran does not look exactly the same so it has me wondering. But whatever the fish in your avatar is, that is what I got.

Yep, it's a Koran - one of favourite fish. I just got to have one when my 280g gets up and running.

[arconom]

Factors that led me to buy the pump.

Basically I read alot about the pump I saw that it moved alot of water and others were happy with it. Also how it is so quiet which it is,Cost, Lastly the electric usage.

[Travis]

arconom, don't get yourself down bud. This is all a learning experience. No matter how much you know before you start you will still learn a lot more (the hard way) along the way. I've redone my plumbing at least 3 times in the past year. The Dart is an AWESOME pump. IMO, one of the best actually. It is quiet as you stated. Actually, all Sequence pumps run that quiet. I'm guessing their new UNO line probably doesn't run as quiet though. The Dart moves a lot of water with very little electrical consumption because it is a high flow low head pump. The advantage of a high flow low head pump is that you move a lot of water with very little electrical consumption and minimal heat transfered to the water. The disadvantage is that you have to run a 2" intake, you have to have very very very little head loss in the plumbing, and you have to use fairly large diameter plumbing.

I don't think I higher pressure pump is the answer. You will need to get a large pump that puts out a lot of flow along with a better reaction to head loss so you will be spending a lot more money. Then, with this higher flow and higher head pump you are going to have a lot more heat transfered to your tank. 75 gallons of water will heat up pretty fast. This will start costing you in the long run because your chiller (assuming you will be using one) will have to run more to keep the temp down.

My recommendation (and I know you aren't going to like the sound of it ) is to get a OM 4-way or a Hayward 1.5" actuated 3-way ball valve controlled with a Natural Wave wavestrip. With a 4-way I would cap off 2 of the outlets. Then feed one outlet 2 the top 3 outlets in the tank and the other outlet to the bottom 2. Then get use a version 2 drum so it alternates the flow between the top 3 and the bottom 2 outlets. I think you would be really happy with this, but I do realize it isn't cheap. Gotta love this hobby.

Or another option that would be more cost-effective would be to leave everything as it is and add ball valves to the outlets. Under normal circumstances you can close the bottom outlets. Then just use the 3 top outlets to provide flow for the tank. Once a day you can close the top outlets and open the bottom outlets for a few minutes to clean the bottom. This won't take much of your time but it is another thing you would have to add to your daily task list. I think this route would also give you better flow. Plug the bottom 2 bulkheads once and see what kind of flow you get out of the top 3.

[arconom]

Originally posted by Travis
Or another option that would be more cost-effective would be to leave everything as it is and add ball valves to the outlets. Under normal circumstances you can close the bottom outlets. Then just use the 3 top outlets to provide flow for the tank. Once a day you can close the top outlets and open the bottom outlets for a few minutes to clean the bottom. This won't take much of your time but it is another thing you would have to add to your daily task list. I think this route would also give you better flow. Plug the bottom 2 bulkheads once and see what kind of flow you get out of the top 3.

Travis I have my willing bro inlaw that will replumb it. I will be putting on DUBVs on all the returns from the CL. So I will be able to control flow and adjust and test flow setups,such as turning off the bottoms. I know that the one center CL Return is robbing from the others. We both felt it. I was very impressed with the flow. I will no even plumb it inI will cap the Bulkhead maybe. I will be gaining a little flow to divert to the other 4. On top of this we will replumb the manifold. I will do the 1.5 all the way up untill I hit the DUBVs.

I wish I could do OMs but they will have to wait.

Is it possible for you to draw a picture in paint? To get a idea of how to make a super flow plumb job?

My idea,that 1.5 will be flex I know you said its hard to work with

[arconom]

Ok so when working with Flex PVC I read people put it in a bath with hot water to make it more managable?

When Gluing Flex PVC to Rigid PVC in my case do I use the Flex glue?

Also what are the typical names of the flex glue? I know it looks blue. Is there a primer to use also?

Also I read that there are different types of flex now which do I want?

The story I read was a guy who said he used flex and it was really loose in the fittings and when he went to glue it it leaked like a sive.

[Lunchbucket]

arconom - you will get this figured out. but go figure after you plan and set it up you need to change it...just the way it ALWAYS goes.

get an OM when you can. yes they are spendy but they ROCK. i will NOT have another tank w/out one. i will only do 4 outlets per pump at one time. unless i have a HUGE pump...then i still think it would be better to do 2 cCL's IMO.

i have used spa flex before and have never gotten the wrong kind....mine always fit super tight. not sure what brand it was. i got mine from HD or from my local hardware store. wehen i glued mine i just used regular PVC glue. there is supposed to be glue for flex pipe but i have heard you don't need to use it. DO NOT take my word for truth...find out more info here first...i've been known to be wrong

Lunchbucket

[Sloppy Joe]

Acronom:

Just a question- With all those holes drilled into one pane of the glass, does that jeopardize the structural integrity of the tank?

I was just looking at the pic os the holes and thought of a large fracture playing connect the dots on the back of your tank.

[Travis]

I couldn't really draw up a picture for you on plumbing. Maybe if I spent a day or 2 and did it in 3D.

My concern with the 1.5" spa flex is that you are using very short runs and I don't think you will be able to get it to do a full 90 degree turn with such a short amount of tubing, but I could be wrong.

Supposedly, you are supposed to use flex pipe sealant for gluing spa flex but I'm not certain if it is needed. I've used it and the regular and both have worked fine so far. You aren't supposed to use primer on spa flex though. The flex glue is part number 235 at aquaticeco.com.

As for the different types of flex, make sure it says spa flex on it. I bought some flex pvc from Ace Hardware a couple years ago. It was my first time using it so I didn't know there was more than 1 kind. It had a smaller outside diameter and didn't fit tight in the fittings. I plumbed a CL for a 75 and it leaked like you wouldn't believe. I later found out that I wasn't using the right kind of tubing. I don't remember what kind it was but it didn't say spa flex on it.

[arconom]

Originally posted by Sloppy Joe
Just a question- With all those holes drilled into one pane of the glass, does that jeopardize the structural integrity of the tank?

I was just looking at the pic os the holes and thought of a large fracture playing connect the dots on the back of your tank.

Yes they do BIG TIME

[arconom]

I just got done cutting all of the return plumbing off the tank. I will draw some ideas up in paint. Yeah it will be hard to bend that 1.5. But Like you guys said I'm killing my pump with that 1"

[arconom]

That was fast

[SERVO]

Originally posted by arconom
I just got done cutting all of the return plumbing off the tank. I will draw some ideas up in paint. Yeah it will be hard to bend that 1.5. But Like you guys said I'm killing my pump with that 1"

Great thing you did. The bigger the size PVC the better. Not only will your pumps run more efficiently, but you will reduce any heat issues. I just re-plummed my returns because the guy I paid to do the job in the first place did it wrong.

[arconom]

I am having trouble visualizing a high flow manifold.

[webpolk]

No updates? How is the tank progressing?

Steve

[Lunchbucket]

yeah you working on it or doing nothin

Lunchbucket

[arconom]

No updates yet I ordered 3 DUBV from Aquatic Eco-Systems. They should be here on Monday. My brother inlaw just got back from his 10 day cruise. I really don't want to ask for help and bother him right now.

The big factor I'm dealing with, is time to some degree. I might have to do it on my own. My friend who has been keeping my corals for all this time has to make room. His tank is overgrown. Also he will be fragging his corals and I would love to get a few frags. My coral babysitter has been incrediblly kind enough to keep my corals this long. I hate to over stay my welcome.

[arconom]

UPDATE

New plumbing job is up and running. DUBV's on ever CL return. But I have 1 leak from a bulkhead!!!!! I have emptied the tank 9 times so far. I'm at a loss on this leaking Bulkhead.

Flow has increased big time with this new setup my Bro-inlaw hooked up