Randy's 180G Reef-Photo Journal

[rdmpe]

Hey Bond - No pics of the manifold yet... All in my head lol

I have moved the tank in the house and am trying to plan the plumbing. I want to run my sump return through a flow control device that can handle the backpressure of penductors. I haven't decided if I'll use the penductors or not, but I want to have the option. And I really like the idea of varying the flow.

I've been looking at everything from the OceansMotions SuperSquirts and 4-Ways to the $$$ motorized ball valves.

I think I'm going to go with a jandy valve and actuator. They aren't really built for the high duty cycle, but if I keep an eye on it and keep the seals greased up, I think it will be OK. I've been looking into that a lot, and figuring out how to rig up a cheap timer to switch it every 5 minutes or so.

I also have to decide how I want to do the sump. I picked up a super cheap 55g tank for $15, but it is just too tall inside my stand. It would be a huge PITA to try to use it. So I'm back to my original plan which was some Super Cheap rubbermaid type tubs and some uniseals...

I'll post plumbing pictures when I finally get some done. If I manage to make any sketches or diagrams while planning I'll stick those up here for comment too.

[rdmpe]

OK - Looking for opinions / advice on the following plan for plumbing my sump return. Note a few things

- I'll have the main drain submerged with a large screen pipe to avoid clogging. This should give me a full siphon thru a 1.5" drain that I can control with the gate valve. This will make the drain pretty much silent. And if it clogs, no worries since I have another 1.5" drain that will start flowing once the water rises above the overflow inside the tank. More info on this system can be found here: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=344892 At the end of the drain line I was thinking of putting a TEE so that one leg was loosely connected to my skimmer pump. That way fresh tank water would get put into the skimmer right away, and any extra would exit the other leg of the tee.

- The sump return will feed a jandy valve with actuator. That will alternate flow between two 1" return lines that come back up over the overflow and down under the sand. Each of these 1" lines will have two penductors on it. The flow will alternate every few minutes so it will just get established in one direction and then will be switched to the other direction. I'm a little worried about creating a big whirlpool though - but my closed loop should keep that from happening maybe... Here are some links regarding penductors / eductors:
http://www.kthsales.com/website/Misc...nthusiasts.htm
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...s&pagenumber=1
And here's some info on the jandy valves. There are some RC'ers using these. With an occasional greasing of the o-rings they seem to be working well.
http://www.poolwaterproducts.com.au/...ts_dvalves.htm

For a return pump I'm thinking of the sequence Tarpon
http://www.mdminc.com/Tarpon.htm

One specific question I have right off is how can I return the fuge water to the pump area without making bubbles that the pump sucks up? Need more baffles? Maybe a small baffled chamber right there where the return is? I was thinking of a TEE with one leg up and one leg down at the end of the pipe, so the bubbles might go up...

So here's my plan, let me know what you think:

[rdmpe]

So how do I drain the fuge into the sump without getting bubbles in the return pump? Anyone fix up a little mini bubble trap or ??

[islandboy]

i think if maybe you elevated the 'fuge and let it drain via gravity to the sump than you might not have a problem with bubbles. especially if the return pipe from the drain is submerged. just an idea though, have never tried running sump/fuge this way.

[rdmpe]

I agree - I need to have the fuge drain submerged. I still think it will suck air with the water leaving the fuge.
I think I'll have a tee at the end with one leg up and one leg down. I guess I'll just have to try
some things out. Another thing I thought of, I need to make sure it is a nice big pipe with a screen cuz
if it got plugged up the fuge would flood...

Here is my latest plumbing plan. I added the closed loop and some unions.
See anything I'm missing in terms of parts?
I want to order this stuff so I can get this thing plumbed!!

[islandboy]

i think the risk of flooding on the fuge is too high (especially with that much water running through your system). i would probably incorporate the fuge inside and slightly elevated in the sump with a drain hole to the sump underneath the fuge (with a pipe sticking up to control water level). then, i would have one of the sides of the sump shorter than the rest so if it does flood it would overflow into the sump rather than into the stand. i think i would feel safer this way. Melev has pictures of a nice sump/fuge which shows kinda what i'm talking about here: http://www.melevsreef.com/55g/55sump.html

[rdmpe]

You are right, I should be scared of that. It's so much cheaper to go with some rubbermaid things. But then a flood would not be cheap at all

If I used two 1.5" pipes to drain the fuge to the sump, using uniseals (I was never planning on using a siphon) that would be pretty safe don't ya think?? I'd have a baffle and/or screen to keep the macro out.

[jay24k]

Your skimmer is near your return. Microbubbles will get through. Move it before the baffles.

[rdmpe]

Hey Jay, No problem on the misread - its kind of a busy diagram...

[jay24k]

Sorry red the diagram wrong. Ignore me

[rdmpe]

So I have two worries on this - bubbles from the fuge and clogging of the fuge. But like I said, I think if I run a couple of 1.5" pipes it will be very hard to clog that drain from the fuge. Of course I'll be keeping an eye on it too during regular maintenance. I thought a lot of people ran a seperate fuge with a gravity drain into their sump...

[islandboy]

i haven't ever used uniseals before. i'm not sure how they work or if they are safe. the two 1.5" pipes should be okay, i think all you would really have to do if you want to stick to your original idea is plumb everything together and do a freshwater run. then cause some controlled problems like shutting off your return pump, or clog your return pipes (from the fuge) to see what will happen and if you need do anything at all. this will give you a better idea of what you problems may occur. anyways this is my two sense.

[rdmpe]

I definitely will be doing that. Melev's site has a good procedure for figuring the max fill height of the sump, etc. So I'll be testing problems with FW first. But I know that the way it is shown now, if the fuge drains clog, the fuge will overflow. But clogging two 1.5" drains would be very difficult!

[rdmpe]

Well, I think I've settled on the sump system as shown. Based on some feedback from the crew over at www.wetwebmedia.com I'm going to shoot for approx. 20X turnover for the fuge flow. I will have a gate valve so I can adjust if that ends up being too much.

Flow from the sump back into the tank . . . I want to try to get about 800-1000 gph from my sump return running through the two penductors (which supposedly should equate to approx. 3000-4000 gph they say although I'm a little skeptical of this number).

So on to the closed loop design!

As for CL pumps, I'm considering one of the Reeflo models (Dart, Barracuda or Hammerhead).

So starting with a 1.5" bulkhead into the tank I could tee to a 1" loop or keep it 1.5". I think I have plenty of room in the DSB to do a 1.5" manifold so I may just leave it at 1.5".

My main dillema though is how many nozzles (size and diameter) to run off the loop. They will have some locline to allow direction adjustment. Assuming approx. 4' head loss a Dart would do about 2900 gph for 160 watts, a Barracuda would do about 3900 gph at 315 watts, and a Hammerhead would do about 5500 gph at about 370 watts. With more headloss the Dart drops off faster since it isn't pressure rated.

I don't want to have too few CL nozzles and have them act like jet streams, but I don't want to have a forest of nozzles sticking out of my sand either! So I may end up having to do some head loss guesstimates, etc. to try to figure the flow through each nozzle.

[travis0712]

any progress? nice tank!

[K-Dubbs]

tagging along

[rdmpe]

Making some progress! I have the actuated jandy valve system put together and wired (not plumbed tho). I'm going to post some more info and pictures this weekend. It's pretty slick IMO. Also getting all of the unions, valves and such together. This stuff adds up quick $$$ ouch.

I just ordered two pumps:

Sequence Tarpon for the sump return, running two penductors

Sequence Dart for the closed loop

[eng94]

nice job

[rdmpe]

I have all of the parts set up and working for my flow switching device. I really had my mind set on doing some type of flow switching to make the tank more dynamic, and because I like gadgets! I looked at a lot of different options for flow switching, including:

OceanMotions 4-way
OceanMotions SuperSquirt
SCWD
Sinusoidally Varying Valve (cylindrical)
Motorized Ball Valve
Actuated Jandy Valve (typically used for swimming pools)

One of the driving factors in deciding what to use was that I want to run penductors on this system, and they create approx. 10 psi (~23') of backpressure. I want to use penductors since I want to get maximum flow from my sump return but don't want to pull 2000+ gph through the sump (too noisy, etc.). So I figured a sump return is a good place to use penductors. I can run it at around 1000 gph and get much more effective flow than that inside the tank. They claim that for every one gallon pumped through the penductor you can get five gallons of tank water moving through the penductor, under ideal conditions (7.5 gpm at 10 psi) I will be happy if I'm getting 2X to 3X flow. Assuming 3X actual flow, I'll get 3000 gph from my sump return and another 2800+ gph from my closed loop. That should be enough flow I think.

So what I decided to use...

- The OM devices are not really set up for back pressure created by the penductors. From what I've read here and on their forums, using their products with penductors or eductors has been problematic.
- SCWD was ruled out for the same reason as the OM devices.
- I couldn't deal with the sinusoidally varying valve project. I don't feel like I have access to the equipment to attempt that project, and don't have the time either.
- I liked the actuated ball valve idea . . . until I found out how much they cost. As far as I could tell, I'd be looking at over $300 for a 1.5" setup, not including the timer.
- The Jandy valve looked like a good option to me. I have one on my pool, and it runs under more pressure and flow than I'll need on the reef tank. They are very simple to take apart to clean, lube, etc. and the price is right.

All of the parts for my Jandy valve setup were bought on ebay, all new items, and for much less than typical retail.

I paid
$36 shipped for the Omron H3CA-A digital timer
$30 for the 1.5" Jandy neverlube valve (which I promptly lubed)
$90 for the Jandy 2440 valve actuator
$10 for the 24VAC 1500mA power supply (from a local surplus store)

I have it all wired up and it works great. There are a few other people I've heard of using this type of system, so I'm confident it is going to work well. It is not really made to run at the duty cycle that I'm going to run it at but if I lube the valve seals every few months I think it will be fine. And the neverlube valve has a lifetime guarantee.

Some pictures:







I have the tank in the house finally, although it is still far from ready for water...



And this morning I'm going out to pick up the correct union ball valves (I had bought the wrong type last time, they can't actually be taken apart while under pressure - wierd). Once I have them I can start the sump/fuge plumbing. But I probably can't go too far with that until my pumps get here, have to make sure everything fits under there. I have a feeling it's going to be a little tight. It will be like fitting a puzzle together...

If I had done a little more looking around, I would have realized I needed the stand to be at least 6" higher. Although it works well from an aesthetic point of view since it is about level with the back of that sofa, it would be great to have 6" more vertical space under there for plumbing... But I am not up for modifying the stand, so I'll make it work as is.

[rdmpe]

I got my new Sequence Dart today



I know they are now shipping with a stronger black wet end,
but I don't plan on breaking this blue one and they'll ship me
a new one if I do. The thing I like about this pump version is
that it has the Baldor motor. I wanted the Baldor motor...

So my question about plumbing is . . .
I need to connect two slip fittings with a very short piece
of 2" pipe. Should I use spa flex or just use rigid pipe?
Here's the picture...



It would not give me much flex tho since it would be so short.
But a little flex there might be helpful for fitting things up.
There will be plenty of spa flex above the ball valve so vibration
isolation will still happen either way.
Here's another picture



So what do you use to cut spaflex? A hacksaw?

[areze]

looks like a sweet tank, thanks for the review; thats the tank and maker I hope to purchase from soon.

how much does it weigh would you estimate?

curious if 3 guys could handle it.

[rdmpe]

It is very heavy. Three guys could probably handle it but it would be tough. Depends on your overflows too. As you can see, I have a large overflow on one end. That end is noticably heavier than the other end...

I would call it 300 lbs off the top of my head. I bet if you call or email them they'll tell you the approx. weight for a given size.

[sawillia]

I cut spa flex with a ratchet type PVC cutter... it makes good clean square cuts in flex... right or wrong I then glue the spa flex into the joints...

http://uniweld.com/catalog/tubing_to...pe_cutters.htm

lowes and HD have them... so do ACE Northern and Habor Frieght

I haven't done a big tank but, I replumbed my 90 in spa flex and I'm really happy with the clean look... Plus I uses 1/2in pan head screws and some brackets to hold the spa flex up against the Plywood bottom *make sure your bottom is 3/4*

It's easy to work with and guesstimate how much and what shape you need. Plus if it's a little long a quick wack and viola...

HTH

[rdmpe]

hmmm - I have the smaller version but it will not do 2". I'll have to look into picking up the big daddy pvc cutter I guess. Does it do OK on 2" rigid pipe also?

Do you use regular pvc glue on the spaflex?

[rdmpe]

Originally posted by sawillia
... *make sure your bottom is 3/4* ...

LOL driving a screw into the bottom glass - would that be a nightmare or what?! Especially if it was full of water. I have 3/4" plywood and then 3/4" styrofoam...