280 gallon tank project has begun!!!!!!

[ssbreef]

nice trap!

[Travis]

Originally posted by dgasmd
What made you change your mind on the close loop vs tunze streams? I can see getting rd of the OM4, but the close loops altogether? Was it the electricity bill and the heat issues? LOL.........

On the lighting front, I can most definately see why. I am with you there.

I can tell you that I have done actually pretty good as far as not changing the set up. I have so far changed the ballasts, which was in the plan, re-done the close loop intake 3 times (not expected), changed the close loop outputs twice, changed the original actuated ball valves for 2 more pumps, replaced seals and wet ends ont he close loop pumps like 87 times, and that is it. Heck, I guess now that I write it down I can see I ahve not done any better than you LOL....................

You are correct on Tunze vs. CL. When I tore the tank down to get the regal out I also redid the plumbing on the main closed loop and got rid of about 65 pounds of rock. The way everything was setup before I was still getting some detritus collection on the rocks in certain areas (not right on top of the rocks or anything but when I would hit them with the baster there were areas that were collecting a lot inside the rocks). So what I did was removed the plumbing for the 2 CL outlets that went into the rock piles. That CL initially went like this: outlet 1 fed the 2 bulkheads on the left side of the tank, outlet 2 fed the 2 bulkheads on the right side of the tank, outlet 3 fed the plumbing inside the rock pile on the right side, and outlet 4 fed the plumbing inside the rock pile on the left side. The plumbing inside the rock piles never performed as I had planned and was really just wasting water flow and also made it so I couldn't aquascape the way I really wanted. So when I removed that plumbing I capped off those two outlets and changed the plumbing on that CL so that outlet 1 feeds the top bulkhead on the left side of the tank, outlet 2 feeds the bottom bulkhead on the left side of the tank, outlet 3 feeds the bottom bulkhead on the right side of the tank, and outlet 4 feeds the top bulkhead on the right side of the tank. I also changed the drum from version 1 (1,2,3,4...) to version 2 (1 & 2, 2 & 3, 3 & 4, 4 & 1...). This keeps the velocity coming out those outlets the same but now the flow is always where it should be instead of only 50% of the time. The difference was pretty amazing. From this CL alone I can now get whirlpools at the top of the tank that extend 6" down and I can get 1/4" bubbles sucked from the top of the tank almost to the bottom.

The 6200 was purchased before I tore the tank down to get more flow. I really didn't have the desire to redo the tank and plumbing until I found out I had to remove the regal. The flow I got after redoing things was plenty but I'm one of those people that like to push things to the limit so I figured I would throw the 6200 in there just to see what it does. Needless to say, the flow is pretty chaotic now. Detritus collection within the rocks is "almost" nonexistent. I must admit, however, that I was not impressed with the way the 6200 spreads out the flow. The velocity is just slightly softer than my Sequence 5800 pushing all of its flow through a 1.5" bulkhead and the spread really isn't much different. However, the performance of this pump with the extremely low electrical consumption and pretty much nonexistant heat addition is what really turns me on to it.

My electric bill in June was pretty scary. It was more than double the one from May or any of my winter and fall bills. Heat has become an issue. I addressed this by adding a 10,000 BTU portable A/C to the tank room. This keeps the ambient temp in there "comfortably" but not chilly even when run on high 24/7. So I do have to run it constantly during the warm months. The chiller has also been running almost constantly lately. With the June bill it got to the point where I really can't afford to pay that much a month for electricity on top of the other regular monthly tank expenses like 3 160 gallon buckets of RC salt and several packages of frozen food that I also pay for monthly.

So I started to do some experimenting. I set my Aquacontroller to turn off both CL pumps (both 5800's) when the lights are off. When I checked my Aquanotes graph the next day I was blown away by the effect this had on my tank temperature. For the first time ever (even when it was below 0 outside) the tank temperature was dropping instead of constanly rising. In fact my heaters even kicked in and I'm not sure if they have ever kicked in yet on this tank. The temp was falling slowly but it was falling. It was dropping at a rate of about .1 degrees per hour with the CL pumps off. With them on the temp was rising at about .1 degrees every 3 minutes. I really didn't think the Sequence pumps were adding any significant heat to the tanks until I actually saw the results.

I'm really undecided on what I'm going to do about the CL vs. streams for now because I love the flow that I'm getting as things are right now. I don't know if I even have the option of getting rid of my spraybar CL. If I got rid of that I don't know how well I would be able to keep the bottom of the tank detritus free, unless I redid the tank again and got rid of the eggcrate platform. One option I may try is putting my Sequence 3200 skimmer pump on that loop and seeing if it will do the job. Then I could possibly get a needle wheel skimmer. I'm not sure how much I want to do that either as I love my MR-6 and the amount of water that it can process in an hour, which cannot be acheived with a needle-wheel skimmer. Or I have also considered the possibility of converting the skimmer to one with air stones like mojo's.

The lighting doesn't add much heat at all to the tank as I have the canopy raised and have the glass lens in place, which really helps with getting the heat ducted outside. However, the ballasts are like ovens as they turn wasted electricity into heat for the tank room. I'm also not keen on having to replace any MH bulb more often than yearly. I'm going to miss the aesthetics of my current lighting but I think I will enjoy the reduced electrical costs, reduced heat added to the room, and probably increased growth that I will get from the new lighting.

Sorry for the long reply but just thought I would put my present thought out on the table.

[Travis]

NexDog, check my reply to dgasmd. To sum it up... "if" I do replace the CL or CL's with streams it is due ONLY to the difference in electrical consumption and heat addition. I'm very happy with my current CL setup but I just wish the pumps didn't put so much heat into the tank or suck up so much electricity.

Lunchbucket, I wouldn't count on it any time soon.

Freeskier98, thanks for the compliment and the patience to read through it all. I hope you got some ideas about things you can do and things you shouldn't do.

[Travis]

Originally posted by wonrib00
Travis, You could look into useing a trap like this one. I with held feeding for a couple of days, then when I put the trap in, there is a tube that goes down the middle with food in it. The trap door is made of glass wihle everything else is plastic. I barrowed this one from my LFS. But I am sure if you a somewhat handy with acrylic, you can make one for a few bucks. Good luck.

That looks like a pretty nuce trap. I like how the food stays "concealed" so it doesn't just eventually float out of the trap. Do you have to manually close the trap door or is there a trigger? My problem is that my fish are all paranoid schizophrenics. Every time I stick my hand in the tank in a way they aren't used to they all run and hide. I guess maybe if the door isn't automated I could attach a clear acrylic rod to it that would stick out of the tank that I could use to shut the door without scaring the fish. Any idea on what that trap retails for? Do you know what the dimensions are?

[Travis]

Originally posted by maxxII
Eric,
A LFS near me will either sell it to or rent it out @ $5.00 a day. I've seen that Dr Foster's and Smith sells a different one...
If I find out where the LFS bought there's form I'll let ya know.
Nick

Let us know if you find any info on how much or where to buy one. I checked with the Drs and I didn't see one quite like what was posted.

[NexDog]

Thanks for the detailed post. Wow, those pumps put out alot of heat, consuming electricity and in turn powering on the chiller to use more energy. It's like having a little nuclear reactor....

[Johnsteph10]

Thanks for the detailed update as to your thoughts on electrical usage. Here on Long Island, electricity is ridiculous so I've had to re-do a lot of my original plans and scrap a few others.

[Lunchbucket]

Travis - sorry to hear about your electircal and heat problems. you will get them figured out and it will prolly be for the best. less plumbing, less heat, less electrical, less mess, less worrying. you'll get it figured out. remember you can call me for help too. just remember saturday...less than 1wk till go time for y tiny tank.

keep us posted.

Travis - pm me i think i have an option for a skimmer for you. did you ever see greg's HUGE NW skimmer? it was on his 450gal. we'll chat via pm's

later
Lunchbucket

[RGibson]

Travis you can fine some very good information on air stone skimmer in the 1999 annual marine fish and reef.

[RGibson]

I do think that more people will change over to a air skimmer because of the ele bill and the heat and at no loss of out put from the skimmer.

[dgasmd]

Travis:

I see. I have always said from day one that the Tunze streams are a very good, although very costly, option for flow so long as you can stomach to look at them. The only one and single gripe I've had with them is the mounting hardware that comes with it. It is a $.10 hardware to a $400+ powerhead. Yes, you can get the magnets for another $40+, but for god's sake!

I have an aquacontroller coming and will be doing some experimenting with temperatures and my pumps too. My equipment is in an open garage with a gigantic fan blowing across all of it, so I think for me it has made a huge difference. My water storage tank sits in the garage also and the water in it has been around 86 F with 90-100 F days. One thing I did to reduce heat over the summer months was to drop my MH lighting cycle to 6 hours/day and the VHO actinics for 12 hours. So far, it is working OK, but my chiller does run often. I will be getting rid of an Iwaki 100 (return pump) soon, so hopefully that will help some. I will also get rid of the other iwaki 100 running my skimmer when I get my custom made air stone skimmer in the next few weeks.

I did a lot of looking around about skimmers. I am having one made of 12" diameter acrylic with a wet neck. We'll see how it works. If it does not work as I want it, I will not be loosing much financially. If and only if that is the case, I will break down and get a Deltec AP1004. My current becket based skimmer does foam well, but hardly gets anything out right now. I think the botton line is that the skimmer has hit its threshold.

On the economic side, I ahve found a few ways to save some money on things:

-Carbon: buy the largest containers possible of marineland carbon. Use less and change it every 4 weeks. It goes a long way. If not, get some TLF carbon. It is by far my prefered brand though.

-PO4 removing media: have been using phosban since the begining, but now I use 1/3 of the recommend it dose and change it every 2 months. The buckets are much cheaper and go a long way.

-Food: Stop buying the frozen foods. They are not that much better quality than what you can make yourself. Get a fish fillet, 15 large shrimps, oysters and clams, minced garlic, a container of flakes, a large block of krill, a bar of cyclopeeze, and 2-4 sheets of nori and blend it all. Put it in zip lock bags. You'll get 4-5 months worth of food for <1/4 of the price.

-Salt: Print out the petsmart salt prices and take it to your local petsmart for a price match. I use IO and it coems out to $32 each 160g bucket. I am only changing 150g per month too, which is less than before. You can get a magnum filter and use it to suck up the bottom without doing a water change in the process. Also, vaccum the bottom an hour after scrapping the glass to suck that up too.

The list of tips go on and on. Let me know if you want to know more aboutt he air stone skimmer and I'll PM you about it.

Alberto

[LittleBlueGT]

I have seen the same sort of heat from my Hammerhead (essentially the same pump as your 5800). You could try running a Dart with a version #1 drum. If I ever re-do my tank or set up a bigger one I will get Darts, as they will not add as much heat to the water. I would rather have 2 Darts and 2 4-ways then 1 Hammerhead and a 4-way, the cost in electricity and heat would make up the difference in a short period of time.

[RGibson]

Alberto could you pm me about the air stone skimmer.

[maxxII]

Travis,
the trap retails for 65.99 at the LFS near me, but they dont have the nifty mesh/screen food tube/container that Wonrib00 showed in his pic. There was no "automatic" activation system on the trap I used. I just propped it into place and waited 5 days till everyone was comfortable going into the trap to get fed, then I closed the trap door.

However, the ballasts are like ovens as they turn wasted electricity into heat for the tank room. I'm also not keen on having to replace any MH bulb more often than yearly. I'm going to miss the aesthetics of my current lighting but I think I will enjoy the reduced electrical costs, reduced heat added to the room, and probably increased growth that I will get from the new lighting.

So are you going to E-ballasts? I must ahve missed your solution to this particular issue.

[maxxII]

Originally posted by RGibson
Alberto could you pm me about the air stone skimmer.

Rgibson....here are some links to airstone skimmers and just skimmer stuff period.

New Skimmer

The Skimming beast is dead....Long live beast ver 2

And finally, Skimming 101

I know several of you guys are already a part of these threads, but Io couldnt remember who was posting on what thread, and I figured anyone else could get some interesting reading from these threads so here they are....

Nick

[melev]

Travis, your comments and thoughts are very interesting and correspond with my own tank as well.

Since I switched from an Ampmaster 4700 to a Little Giant, and since I switched from a Lifereef PS w/ Mag 12 to a Euro-Reef 12-2 w/ two Sedra 5000 pumps, the tank temperature dropped a couple of degrees. At night my tank will drop to 79F and the heaters turn on to bring it up to 79.5F. During the day time, the tank doesn't get higher than 80.5F, and I'm not using any fans whatsoever.

The room a/c unit is kept at 78F, and that has been working well. My electric bill this month was $321. Ugh. A few months ago, it was $175. That is quite a jump, but my house is old and my windows are single pane. I really need to bite the bullet and start replacing them, as well as getting new Whirly-Birds on the roof as mine are too low and don't spin like the house next door!

[zemuron114]

This has been a very informative thread!! Thanks everyone for posting such insightful comments and experiences.

Travis- great job! keep it up!

[nbd13]

Travis- for myt new 275 gallon tank i am going to get 4 sequence darts pumps....

now i have about 3 mag drive pumps on my 180 right now and i can keep the tank at 79 all day....

but for the new tank i will be using the SAME lighting, but the only difference will be the pumps.... i have tunze streams right now (4 6100s) and will be using the closed loop pumps now...

do you think taking the 3 mag drive pumps out and replacing them with the darts will i gain any heat?

or will it be about the same?

thanks again!

Nick

[LittleBlueGT]

Originally posted by nbd13
do you think taking the 3 mag drive pumps out and replacing them with the darts will i gain any heat?

or will it be about the same?

Which mag drives? 7, 9, 12, 18?

[nbd13]

lets see i have one 12, one 9 and one 7....

what do you think?

thanks!

Nick

[LittleBlueGT]

I would guess a Dart would add as much heat to the water as a Mag 9, maybe a bit less.

So I guess I think you would be OK, likely the same amount of heat added. Just be sure to have a nice clean flow of water with the Dart. It is a very low power consumption pump because it can not take much head pressure. Use 2 inch pipe wherever possible. Use spa-flex to avoid sharp angles, etc...

[Travis]

Originally posted by NexDog
Thanks for the detailed post. Wow, those pumps put out alot of heat, consuming electricity and in turn powering on the chiller to use more energy. It's like having a little nuclear reactor....

Yup, it really is a downward spiral once the tank starts heating up. The more heat added to the tank the more it costs to bring the temp back down. I must say I was quite suprised about how much heat the 5800's are adding. I had no idea it was that much. I would love to be able to turn my Iwaki 100 off for a few hours to see how much that sucka is adding but it is my return pump so it wouldn't be an option. I bet that pump is adding more than any other piece of equipment.

[Travis]

Originally posted by Johnsteph10
Thanks for the detailed update as to your thoughts on electrical usage. Here on Long Island, electricity is ridiculous so I've had to re-do a lot of my original plans and scrap a few others.

I hear ya, althought electricity isn't "too" bad here... but it still isn't free. I think we should all just be glad we don't live in Cali.

[Travis]

Originally posted by Lunchbucket
Travis - sorry to hear about your electircal and heat problems. you will get them figured out and it will prolly be for the best. less plumbing, less heat, less electrical, less mess, less worrying. you'll get it figured out. remember you can call me for help too. just remember saturday...less than 1wk till go time for y tiny tank.

keep us posted.

Travis - pm me i think i have an option for a skimmer for you. did you ever see greg's HUGE NW skimmer? it was on his 450gal. we'll chat via pm's

later
Lunchbucket

I guess I shouldn't say that I have heat "problems" because I have no problem keeping the tank where I want it. It is more of a nuisance because of the insane electric bill during the summer months. Hopefully, I will have some changes done by next summer so I can save some money on electricity. My bill during the fall, winter, and spring really isn't that bad at all.

I will talk to you this weekend when I'm up there about the skimmer. I saw pics of Greg's and heard about it. However, if I do change anything with my skimmer it will most likely be a DIY conversion to air stones or swapping it out for a skimmer designed for air stones.

[gregt]

This thread was automatically split due to performance issues. You can find the rest of the thread here: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=636606