who out there goes with a bare bottom tank. Just live rock and no substrate?

[Monster_13]

About the whole cooking the rock. My rock has been im my tank, im the basement, in the dark, sitting for 3 months to cure and what not. I'm guessing that is the best way to do it to get rid of the bad stuff?

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Wind
so how do u guys siphon the detrius w/ so much current ?? especially in big tanks.. and what not? may seem a stupid question..

Not a stupid question at all. I run about 30,000 gals of circulation in the tank and another 2500gph through the sump. There's a compartment in the sump, sort of a waterfall effect where I can put quilting batting (Wal-Mart). I stir everything up and it's filtered out in about 30min. The settling area in the sump I siphon when I do water changes and any spots in the main tank that's missed.

Originally posted by Ewan
Personally, I will be placing my old rock in a 44gal brute trashcan in the dark for 2-3 months with a Superreef devil skimmer powered by a mag 9.5. It will receive the water from my reef after a waterchange (it will receive weekly waterchanges).

I believe this is what Bomber means by "cook". Let the rock cycle in the dark, and give it a good LONG time to get rid of the nasties.

Exactly, let the bacteria drive it out and clean it up. Only difference is I'm not using a skimmer, it's plumbed to the canal and running semi-open. When you notice the detritus has slowed to a stop, you're good to go again. (I know, I know, this flies in the face of "I just bought live rock and look at all the life I got.)

Originally posted by 64Ivy
Interestingly, in a tank wide shot, the bottom looked a bit like a sandbed!

Mike, that's one good looking bare bottom you got there.

Originally posted by Mojoreef
At this point I decided that if detritus removal was what I wanted it was a better idea to just remove it (by vacumming) then to create this elaborate poop cycle that was doomed anyway.]

I'm going to burn in hell for this, ain't I Mike.

[chrixx]

Thanks for the pic 64Ivy. Are you still looking to get rid of some zoos from time to time?

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Monster_13
About the whole cooking the rock. My rock has been im my tank, im the basement, in the dark, sitting for 3 months to cure and what not. I'm guessing that is the best way to do it to get rid of the bad stuff?

That's about it. When you see the detritus play out.

I can't take credit for the shop-vac. I stole it from Mojo (Mike).

and as long as we're posting tank pictures. Here's mine before the crash, but coming back bigger and better this time.



When my tank grows up I want it to look like Mojo's or 64Ivy's.

[Mojoreef]

Oh man Bomber Duck and cover...and hey i still have the patent on that


Mike

[absolut]

Shop Vac...you must be kidding!

[Monster_13]

Bomber, WOW Great tank!

[Wind]

so what about those who want sand in the display tank?.. how would we upkeep with it for long term..(years.)..decade? as u might say...

can i keep 1-2 inches in the display.. and siphon the sand bed from time to time? and keep a dsb in my refuge? and what not??

[Bomber]

Thanks Monster, here's the other side.

[Monster_13]

can i keep 1-2 inches in the display.. and siphon the sand bed from time to time? and keep a dsb in my refuge? and what not??

I'm keeping a DSB in my refuge. I have heard of others doing it as well. It's not setup yet, and I hope it works, but my nitrates are only at 2 ppm now, and I havent done a water change to my liverock in almost 3 months....and I only have a 2" sand bed at the max. (PS. I will be doing a water change soon for all you water change freaks)

[Monster_13]

Double sided?! That is awesome!!! I can't wait to get a bigger tank and do something like that one I get acclimated to this hobby. Too bad it had to crash...

[Ewan]

Former tank of the month, If I'm not mistaken. natural sea water was used, correct?


Beautiful tank. I dig the 2 sided-ness

E.

[Monster_13]

Was it hard to make it two sided like that?

[gregt]

Nah, you just need plenty of room.

[Monster_13]

Now thats a picture! Lol

[DownUnder-Reefer]

I have really enjoyed the discussion and the peeks at your tanks, Bomber, great looking tank ( I do very much admire double sided tanks, because the labour of aquascaping two sides is horrendous, but its worth it) !

Would the general consensus here be that all DSB's are doomed to crash with no exceptions only the amount of time it will take?

[hcs3]

ripped my DSB about 3 months ago

as they say....can't make something into nothing...

[Mikeaveli21]

Wow, great post. I was planning on adding a DSB because of all the"great stuff" I had heard about it, but I NEVER actually liked the look of the DSB or the fact that it would take up so much real estate for corals/LR etc... So now I am leaning towards just adding 1-2 inches (max) of sand.

Now my question. I hear a lot of people using a DSB in their fuges to offset not using a DSB in their display tank, But I don't have a fuge, so what do I do? What do I need to keep nitrates down? Will water changes, LR and a skimmer do the job?

Also, I want to add a HOB fuge to my 55 gal. Would adding a DSB in the HOB with some macro be sufficient?

Thanks in advance guys.

[Gerard the fish]

You old timers need to get your heads out the past time to move on! DSB's are the future! you will be assimilated!

[DownUnder-Reefer]

Maybe heads out of the sand LOL

[ergo reefer]

My first post! I have found this thread very interesting!
I had a 150 gal mixed reef with ~ 4 inch DSB for about 5 years and I experienced the problems others had. The first 3 years everything was extremely successful with SPS growing nicely. But after 3 to 4 years the corals started slowly dying although the algae never got out of hand. I tried larger water changes, larger skimmer, and even ripped the plenum out and tried to clean the sand (what a PIA!). After that, the tank never recovered. In hindsight, I should have completely taken out all of the sand. One thing I noticed was a growing layer of gray detritus building behind the rock were I could not siphon it out. The detritus seemed to be mostly caused by the 70 to 80 astreas I had in the tank. Previous tanks I owned had no substrate and were alot easier to keep although they were not set-up as long.
I have been thinking about setting up the tank again, but I will keep it essentially bare bottom and set-up a fuge with DSB that is easier to control and change.
I have seen alot of impressive tanks on this website, but the most impressive tanks are the ones that have been set-up for at least 5 years with good success. Someone should start a thread (if not already) on pics of tanks greater than 5 years old and their experiences with DSB.
My $.02 .
Thanks,
Paul

[MiddletonMark]

Love this thread ... set up a new 58g tank a few months back ... and despite all the hype of DSB I decided against it. Just a <1" sandy cc substrate - which I've liked a lot. May remove some of it now, given what I've heard ... but weekly vacuuming seems to be slowly removing some of it anyway.

Glad to hear all the experienced folks here [obvious most have spent years in the hobby] who have great tanks without a DSB.
No one's hyping the years they have in the hobby, but a few looks at some of these tanks [and counting time in people's posts of prior tanks/etc] shows they've got more than a lot of people here.

It seems odd that successful tanks were run before DSB's, but now the `party line' is that you must have one to have a successful tank. Having read a few `my DSB crashed' stories before setting up my tank - I was wary enough to skip it.... seemed like the internet hype to me.

I'm not saying that it can't be wildly successful, but if you did everything the internet told you ... I'd hate to see what your life would be like [though you'd have great big private parts with all those emails ].

Personally I'm going to modify my sump to make it a 'fuge, and put a DSB in there. A number of folks here have said that's how they did it and as it can be taken out so much easier ... seems worthwhile. Probably not as effective as a 36x20" DSB across the tank, but also possibly less problematical.

As was stated earlier, I plan to have this tank set up for many years [own the house] so the possibilty of re-doing the tank after a few years to replace the sandbed ... not something I welcome.

I'm just happy to hear a long thread of people who've done both and decided to remove the DSB. Seems like when I was setting my recent tank up I could search but not find that. Keep it going, it may help a LOT of people just starting out or upgrading their tank.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Ewan
Former tank of the month, If I'm not mistaken. natural sea water was used, correct?
Beautiful tank. I dig the 2 sided-ness
E.

It's been nothing but NSW since day one Ewan, so no blaming heavy metals here. It's a organic/nutrient problem and nothing else. Deep Sand Beds

Originally posted by Jimmy_D
Would the general consensus here be that all DSB's are doomed to crash with no exceptions only the amount of time it will take?

Jimmy, logics says that no they aren't. Experience says that you walk a fine, delicate line.

Originally posted by Mikeaveli21
What do I need to keep nitrates down? Will water changes, LR and a skimmer do the job?

Mike, Large thick boulder type rocks also have anoxic/anaerobic zones and process nitrates. Difference being, bacterial forces will drive detritus out of rocks (they are suspended) where it can be removed from the system. Think about where nitrates come from, just remove the detritus before it's processed. And yes, good husbandry (water changes and skimming are part of that) goes a long way.

Originally posted by Gerard the fish
You old timers need to get your heads out the past time to move on! DSB's are the future! you will be assimilated!

But Gerard, that's what we heard 10 years ago and why we tried it. LOL

Originally posted by ergo reefer
My first post!
Someone should start a thread (if not already) on pics of tanks greater than 5 years old and their experiences with DSB.
My $.02 .
Thanks,
Paul

Paul, Welcome to the Madness! great idea for a new thread.

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
No one's hyping the years they have in the hobby, but a few looks at some of these tanks [and counting time in people's posts of prior tanks/etc] shows they've got more than a lot of people here.

Most of us have been friends for years and years too Mark.

[SPC]

Originally posted by Mikeaveli21
Now my question. I hear a lot of people using a DSB in their fuges to offset not using a DSB in their display tank, But I don't have a fuge, so what do I do? What do I need to keep nitrates down? Will water changes, LR and a skimmer do the job?

Yes it will Mike if one sticks to a schedule and dosen't overstock/overfeed.

Also, I want to add a HOB fuge to my 55 gal. Would adding a DSB in the HOB with some macro be sufficient?

The macro is a great idea IMO, but once again, this macro will not be beneficial if one does not do regular maintenance on it.
As far as the sand goes, I don't think that this small amount would accomplish much in the way of denitrafication.

My situation is I like the looks of the sand in the main tank, as well as the animals that live on it. My plan (when I re do my tank)is to go with 1" of sand in the main tank and keep it vacuumed.
Steve

[Mako]

Ok, I guess now is not the time to bring up some tanks I know of with DSB's going on 9 years old.