who out there goes with a bare bottom tank. Just live rock and no substrate?

[deansreef]

Just wondering the pros and cons of barebottom. Dean

[dattack]

Pros: Don't have to pay for sand, easier to clean, can put in all the flow you want without disturbing sand, and don't have to pay for a detrivore kit or sand sifters.

Cons: Lose function of a DSB, less natural looking.


I prefer to use only about 1" of sand.

[JRF]

HI,
I use a completely bare bottom tank but I do have a refugium under the tank with 4" of sand. I like a bare bottom tank for siphoning detritus off the bottom.
JRF

[Aframomum]

I had a bare-bottom with my first tank back in 1994 and really didn't like it. I had to construct PVC piping to go behind the reef to blow detritus to the front portion so it could be siphoned and all the plumbing just looked unsightly. Of course today you can easily use powerheads to obtain the same effect. And the look was not natural. Can't really tell about nitrate because of the wet-dry that was used then and nitrate really wasn't a concern at the time.

On a plus side though, I think with a bare-bottom tank you could easily experiment with ultra-high flow rates, wavemaking devices, etc. for SPS corals that normally would blow sand in a DSB all over the tank all the time.

Mark

[Immortalnight]

Bare-bottom tanks make me think of pet-stare tanks -- that is, they have an unnatrual and temporary look to it. Some might also claim that fish can become stressed by bare-bottom tanks. I'm not sure if there is any proof of it though.
In all, bare-bottom tanks are a lot easier to maintinance but then again, it strips the tank of one of the main reasons most start fish tanks...for the sheer beauty and appeal of it.
Admit it...in the beginning didn't most of you want a marine tank to have nothing less than a little peice of nature in your home?
Just IMO.

[WaterDogs]

Bare-bottom here too.

[Bomber]

Going back to shallow sand bed, about 1" or less. not really bare bottom.

don't ever have to worry about another deep sand bed crash!

[gregt]

My frag tanks are completely bare bottom with LR in the sump.

Display tank DSB is getting ripped out this summer and replaced with a very shallow layer of sand that can be easily cleaned.

[64Ivy]

I've always had a barebottom tank and after several years of coralline, rubble, zoos and mushroom growth, it looks pretty darn natural to me.

[Mako]

What kinda NO3 levels you getting with setup 64Ivy?

[bluereefs]

Bare botom from begining,I had thought once to put dsb in my aquariums(before 3-4 years when I found reef central)but that idea last about five minutes .
Nitrates and phosphates undetectable with salifert tests kits,and glass bottom also undetectable due to coralline,sponges and corals growths.

[absolut]

Bomber,

May I ask what the circumstances were to make your DSB crash...is it ineveitable for every DSB when it gets too old??

gregt,

how come the switch to shallow...will you just rely on other methods of nutrient export??

[Bomber]

The circumstances. It was old, it filled up, it stopped working, it became a nutrient sink.

[gregt]

I don't believe a DSB is a method of export. It's just a very good sponge. I'm taking it out to avoid the inevitable.

IMO, all the little critters can keep the sponge working longer, but eventually it will become saturated.

[bamboozler]

I'm converting back to bare bottom. I have a lot of flow, and always had a sandstorm (even CC would get blown into big piles). The bare areas quickly covered over with purple coralline, so I've been gradually pulling substrate out. I do have 5" DSB in the refugium, and that is the only place that has nuisance algae BTW.
I have 2 MaxiJet 900's pointed straight down, and randomly slide them along the back tank wall, which keeps all detritus either in suspension or blown to the front where it can easily be siphoned away (all but the giant Tang turds).

[Mako]

Originally posted by bluereefs
Nitrates and phosphates undetectable with salifert tests kits,and glass bottom also undetectable due to coralline,sponges and corals growths.

Well, humor me and explain how you accomplish "undetectable NO3" with your setup? I am very serious with that question folks. I ran a number of setups over the years with bare bottoms (or very close to it) and N03 levels were always a chore. Water changes, resins, reactors....all failed to maintain "undetectable" NO3 levels. Never experienced that until I tried a DSB. I am seriously thinking about doing my next setup without the DSB simply because of the water movement I want to generate. Just not sure I want to deal with those little NO3 battles again.

Originally posted by Bomber
The circumstances. It was old, it filled up, it stopped working, it became a nutrient sink.

Come on Jerrel....I need more details than that to make my decision. How old? What did it fill up with? How did you know it stopped working? What nutrients were being sunk there? HM's??

Originally posted by Gregt
IMO, all the little critters can keep the sponge working longer, but eventually it will become saturated.

With what? How long? What do you base this on?

[Zoom]

Originally posted by Bomber
The circumstances. It was old, it filled up, it stopped working, it became a nutrient sink.

Same here after seven years it stopped working i spend three days getting it out , that was pain in the rear end, I put back about 100LBS of new sand i switch to shallow sand bed i like to have no sand at all but my big derasa will rock and jump on the glass buttom so 40 days later after the new sand unbelievable turn around. I have a 65G grow out tank with a 5" sand bed after three years i can get the phosphate down to a good level i spend over $150 for a rowa and still can not remove it out i got me a new 90G now and i will transfer everything to it but not the sand,that tank will be Bare-bottom.

[Zoom]

Well, humor me and explain how you accomplish "undetectable NO3" with your setup? I am very serious with that question folks. I ran a number of setups over the years with bare bottoms (or very close to it) and N03 levels were always a chore. Water changes, resins, reactors....all failed to maintain "undetectable" NO3 levels. Never experienced that until I tried a DSB. I am seriously thinking about doing my next setup without the DSB simply because of the water movement I want to generate. Just not sure I want to deal with those little NO3 battles again.

The problem I had with the sand bed was.increase of phosphate and my hair algae was grown faster than ever. the sand start growing cyano all over it. I did this test and discover that my sand bed was no good any more i siphoned about a quart of sand with water and stir it very good and let it settle for six hours and i test for phosphate , It was off the chart.

[metamorphis]

I am a firm believer in the bare bottom. Here are my pros and cons..

-Don't have to pay for sand
-Don't have to pay for critters
-Don't have to pay for more critters down the road
-Don't have to worry about moving it if need be
-Don't have to worry about notorious sand bed bombs
-Don't have to wait days for the storm to settle
-You can work all you want in the tank and it will remain clear
-No blanket of fine dust all over everything
-Doesn't take up 4 inches of your tank
-Doesn't trap detritus
-Very easy to clean (keep it as clean/or natural as you like)
-Won't ever become a hair algae farm
-Won't harbor a massive bristle worm farm (yes some are good, but it get ridiculous)
-Put all the flow in there you want. Look at any of the fancy european SPS factories, and you won't see a DSB in any of them. It's crushed coral or nothing most of the time.


Cons -
-Doesn't have the natural sand look
I put tonga frilly tonga mushrooms, gsp, xenia, and button polyps in place of a sand bed. I think it looked great. I painted the bottom of the tank blue to match the back so it really didn't look out of place while I was waiting for the corals to fill in.

-No denitrification benefits
I ran a slightly lower fish load and kept up with my water changes. No nitrate problems, no out of control algae outbreaks, no nutirent spikes, nothing. On a 15 gallon tank, I literally have no filtration other than live rock. A HOB filter for circulation and a couple maxi jets. Over a dozen SPS are still doing great. Not a single loss. YMMV

-KRIS

[bluereefs]

Well, humor me and explain how you accomplish "undetectable NO3" with your setup?
In the same way like when you make aquarium with dsb,some people have dsb and nitrates too.If thee is to much nitrates(or amonium and nitrites)in aquarium something is wrong with setup and mainteance.To much feeding,to much fishes,to big fishes,not enough denitrifacion zone ...etc.
Also solutions can be refugium,separate tank with dsb,macro and micro algae in aquarium,...

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Mako
Come on Jerrel....I need more details than that to make my decision. How old? What did it fill up with? How did you know it stopped working? What nutrients were being sunk there? HM's??

Phooey with heavy metals Chuck, when you have that much organics built up, HM's are the least of your problems. It was approaching 4 years old. The first thing that happened I started to get spotty cyano places that I never had before, then hair algae in places around the bottom of the rocks, especially where the rocks were touching the sand. Organics were building up faster than the DSB was able to process it. I did all the standard methods of controlling it. Sput!
I'm through looking for some magic way to leave poop in the tank. And I'm through trying to balance all these poop eating animals with the amount of poop in the tank and hoping it works. I have a siphon!
I'm going new rocks, a new very shallow sand bed that I can clean and not worry about anoxic/anaerobic zones. The way I did it for decades before all this "new" crap from people that don't know what they're talking about.

[SPC]

Originally posted by bluereefs
Well, humor me and explain how you accomplish "undetectable NO3" with your setup?
In the same way like when you make aquarium with dsb,some people have dsb and nitrates too.If thee is to much nitrates(or amonium and nitrites)in aquarium something is wrong with setup and mainteance.To much feeding,to much fishes,to big fishes,not enough denitrifacion zone ...etc.

I agree with blue here, NO3 is kept low through the use of good maintenance and husbandry practices.
Steve

[Mako]

Unleash the dogs.

I am not disagreeing with you folks. I am just trying to understand the reasoning is all. I know about good maintenance and good husbandry. That still will not get you undetectable nitrates in a bare bottom tank. Well, at least in my experience it won't. Best I was ever able to attain was maintaining below 15ppm, but there was always detectable NO3. And it was certainly a lot more work to keep that way then what I have experienced with a DSB.

From what I am hearing here so far, it seems that some of you are indicating that your DSB's became P04 sinks. Is that pretty much the jist of it?

[Flatlander]

Ways of keeping nitrates down, besides the good house cleaning mentioned above,

- Run a turf scrubber or any outside algae filter. A sandbed is not needed in a sump to grow calerpa.

- Have a remote sandbed or similar filter. My 100g sump contains a 4in. gravel bed on a 2in. plenum. Its fully accessible for cleaning & or partial replacement this way.

[Bomber]

Bark Bark Bark

Can you tell I'm more than a little PO'd about this?

It's was just a build up of detritus, in all shapes, colors, and sizes. First it was a little cyano here and there. That shows how much flux is really going on in a closed system DSB. Problem is, those spots of cyano are a indication of organic build up too. That those areas are going bacterial driven, that you're loosing the fauna in that area. There's not enough recruitment in a closed system and every time that happens, it tends to stay that way for a while.
Then there was a little hair algae around the bottom of the rocks, where organics were migrating up into the rocks and filling them up.
I added tons of critters at that point and seemed to be getting it under control again. Cleaned off hair algae, siphoned sand and replaced it in spots, you name it, I did it.

Well, it came back with a vengeance! I refuse to have a sand bed critter dominated tank. All this jumping through hoops just to leave detritus in the system. It's not a big deal to siphon out the tank every time I do water changes, and frankly, that's a whole lot easier than what I've been going through trying to fix this dang sand bed. And I won't have the O2 demands and other things of the DSB to think about. If you keep your animal and food loads right, siphon out the tank, you shouldn't worry about nitrates anyway. Most animals need it and if you have a problem, it's a good excuse to get some clams!