who out there goes with a bare bottom tank. Just live rock and no substrate?

[SPC]

Originally posted by Mako
Unleash the dogs.

I am not disagreeing with you folks. I am just trying to understand the reasoning is all. I know about good maintenance and good husbandry. That still will not get you undetectable nitrates in a bare bottom tank. Well, at least in my experience it won't. Best I was ever able to attain was maintaining below 15ppm, but there was always detectable NO3. And it was certainly a lot more work to keep that way then what I have experienced with a DSB.

I know that you are aware of maintenance and good husbandry Chuck , let me try and explain a bit more what my philosophy on this subject is.

First, I have no answer for those who are going to keep a large fish load and feed the tank heavy with animal protein and expect to have low NO3. IMO the first step in keeping low NO3 levels is to try and balance the organic load of our tanks with the capabilities that our sytems (which includes the hobbyist abilities to stay on a schedule) have for removing, or breaking down, these organics. Ways to do this are:

1. Get the crap out of the tank before it has a chance to break down. This can be accomplished through heavy protien skimming, water changes, siphoning, the use of mechanical filtration which is only needed every week or two IMO (change the filter material after 2 days), blasting the L/R, high water flow.

2. For the crap that does break down regardless of our efforts, L/R is excellent at breaking down NO3, algae filters, natural uptake by animals in our system.

Now I know that you have employed all of these methods I mentioned above at one time or another Chuck, but IMO most hobbyist handcuff themselves right out of the gate by overloding their systems with organics. Some of this overload comes from the experts, "you must feed your DSB to have it function properly."

Second, a DSB is an outstanding "short term" method for breaking down nitrates, but as Jerel (and Dr Ron IMO) have found out, it is not a long term solution. If one is OK with this knowledge that they will have to remove all of their sand at some point, then I think a DSB is the way to go for them. If however they are under the impression that their DSB will continue to process NO3 indefinately, then they are headed for a big mess.

Steve

[chrixx]

If I am understanding this correctly, it sounds like a bare bottom makes a cleaner, easier to maintain tank. DSB is only a temporary solution (3 year term) to export NO3 and must be eventually replaced. Does it make more sense to keep your DSB in the sump and use a bare bottom in the display tank? You can easily siphon the display tank and, when necessary, you can replace your DSB without disrupting the display tank. Of course, your sump would need the critters necessary to turn/sift the sand. Would it make sense to cover the display tank bottom with shrooms, zoos, etc. to make it more appealing to the eye?

Thanks for any clarification I need here.

[Algae Blenny]

They say the fish get stressed because they can see their reflection under themselves, or something like that

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Algae Blenny
They say the fish get stressed because they can see their reflection under themselves, or something like that

Yeah, even if that were true, it's nothing compared to the stress I'm under.

Originally posted by SPC
Second, a DSB is an outstanding "short term" method for breaking down nitrates, but as Jerel (and Dr Ron IMO) have found out, it is not a long term solution.

Thanks Steve, you're making me feel better about this all the time. and a ton of other people too!

[Entropy]

I am running about 1.5 inches of sand in my tank at the front and maybe .5 inches behind the LR. I think DSB's look like crap. I really don't have any desire to waste 1/4 of my viewing area with sand, so I desided to put the DSB in my refuge (22 gallons). This way I can replace it down the road and just shut off the drain to the refuge while I am doing it.

[chrixx]

If you paint the bottom or cover it with shrooms, zoos, etc., this would reduce the stress for the fish.

[Mark]

I concurr with Bomber and Greg. In retrospect, the dsb didn't do much for my tank. I did see greater biodiversity by providing a substrate to the sand critters. But the same biodiversity could be accomplished with a shallow bed. In Europe, the majority do not favor DSB's. At the same rate, they have reef aquariums that are over 10 years old with no "old tank syndrome". Competition over time have homogenized these tanks to support only a few species of coral, but no big crashes. I just don't think all the meiofauna can clean up a sand bed as well as we believe. The beauty of using algae to keep NO3 and DO low is the fact that you export it! It is physically removed from the tank. In a closed system, I think such actual physical export is the key.

When I ran tanks barebottom, and shallow sand bottom, I never had problems with NO3. I always stocked lightly though. I've also always used algae export in form or another.

I just don't buy into it anymore. Heck, even Ron's very own tank crashed, and now he's saying tanks need to be "restarted" from time to time. I'm not bashing him, I think he's contributed a lot of good stuff to this hobby. But, I think there are ways to avoid OTS and ditching the DSB is one of them.

[SPC]

Originally posted by Bomber
Thanks Steve, you're making me feel better about this all the time. and a ton of other people too!

Heck I've got a 3 year old DSB myself , I'm not exactly feeling real great about it either .

Steve

[reefer420]

I think Deep sand beds are ugly!!! 6-8 inches of sand is completely ridiculous IMO you lose my than you actually gain. I like some substrate, any kind, better than bare bottom, unless you fill it in with coral like 64ivy said...I imagine that looks really cool!

[absolut]

Bomber,

so if you plan to use a shallow sand bed so you can siphon it out from time to time, does that mean you will be using crushed coral or a larger aragonite gravel as opposed to sand??

[Bomber]

Originally posted by SPC
Some of this overload comes from the experts, "you must feed your DSB to have it function properly."

That's not the only one either. Just the way DSB's are set up skews them to a large anoxic/anaerobic zone and a small aerobic zone on short time. Reality is, you need a very large aerobic zone supported by a very small anoxic zone.

Originally posted by Mark
I think there are ways to avoid OTS and ditching the DSB is one of them.

I agree 100%. I'm going back to the old tried and proven methods.

I mean think about it.

People are jumping though all these hoops, buying all these critters and poop eaters, adding all this bio-load to the system that's consuming O2 and producing waste also, etc

Just to keep detritus! Since when is detritus a pet?

[Bomber]

Originally posted by absolut
Bomber,

so if you plan to use a shallow sand bed so you can siphon it out from time to time, does that mean you will be using crushed coral or a larger aragonite gravel as opposed to sand??

Nope, just sand.

[absolut]

huh, so would you just siphon out a little sand when you do maintanence and add more from time to time or what?...

just wondering cause I'm about to setup a 90 gal and I want to make a decision on what I'm going to do for my substrate.

[Bomber]

Gotcha

Here's what I'm doing. I'm going to put in about 3/4 - 1" of sand. If it blows around too much and I get tired of sticking my arm in there to level it out, I just might take it all out. I'm not going to use anything that's a larger courser more porous calcium carbonate material like crushed coral or something. My experience is that it catches, traps, too much detritus - ad/absorbs too much nutrients and grows hair algae again.
I plan on stirring it up and getting the detritus out of it anyway. At least with this much current, I'm almost guaranteed it will stay aerobic.

[Aquatect]

Ive got a 2-3 inch deep sand bed and it looks better than just glass... Plain glass will make the tank look less real and more unfinished(even though tanks are never realyl finished, lol)

[znut Reefer]

Hi, I had a 135 reef. that had around 3 in of sand in it. I moved the tank and put more sand back in and seeded it with some of the old live sand. I battled just about every type of algae there is for over a year. I moved the tank 8 mos ago. I didn't put any sand back in. Not sure if thats what did it, but all the algae went away. Now I just set up a 225 with no sand. I'm trying to decide if I should leave it alone or add 1in of sand.

[64Ivy]

Originally posted by Mako
What kinda NO3 levels you getting with setup 64Ivy?

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, Mako. I've been traveling. Anyway, the highest Nitrate reading I ever got was near 50ppm...not horrible. Over a year ago however, I added a refugium which DOES have a sandbed (4") and now I'm running at between 0 and 2ppm.

[WaterDogs]

When the DSB is removed I hear it's the sickest stenches, worse than death, gut wrenching smell that will put just about any human down for the count.

[chrixx]

64Ivy:
Do you have any pictures of the bottom of your tank? If so, could you post the picture or the link to one? Thanks

[DukeDog]

What are the options for removing or reducing our DSB's if we chose to ?
Syphon a little out each week ?
take out all at on time ?
tear tank apart and start again ?
What are some other approaches and which is better???
Enquiring minds want to know
Jeff

[DownUnder-Reefer]

Go to any estuarine system or harbour or lagoon or anywhere that isnt continously pounded by waves and dig down, the sand will always be blackish and have a "DSB" smell to it.

I think a big problem is that people use DSB's and have no nitrate and they just keep stocking there tanks and upping the bioload.

I personally would never consider having a marine tank that did not have a DSB.

[DownUnder-Reefer]

Having a tank without a DSB to me would be only half a hobby.

[Slicktrax]

Aside from the good versus bad debate could someone post a pic of their bare bottom tank. I just want to see how one looks.

[Zoom]

Originally posted by chrixx
64Ivy:
Do you have any pictures of the bottom of your tank? If so, could you post the picture or the link to one? Thanks

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=1
look at the pictures 64Ivy: tank picture is there.

[chrixx]

I was just doing a search on bare bottom tanks and came across this article Reef Aquarium Filtration and noticed that we are talking about what is referred as The Mud / Eco Method. Seems like an interesting concept.