Help, Damsel in trouble

[jjakes24]

Ok I have a 10 gallon tank that has been up for about 6 months now with little problems. I have been working on getting my nitrates down for the last couple of weeks and did a 40% water change the other day. I let the new water sit a couple of days and made sure everything matched. I came home today and noticed my black damsel breathing heavy and sitting near the bottom of the sand and he did not want to eat at all. I tested the water parameters and found the following.
Salinity - 1.024
PH - 8.8 (This is the problem i think, its always been at 8.2 and don't know how it got to this)
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrates - 20
temp 78.
It is a 10 Gallon tank. All other inhabitants look fine and include two very small blue leg hermits, camel shrimp, emerald crab and three snails. One snail seems rather suspicious though as he is on the sand and not on the rock or glass where i usually see them. What can i do to try and save this fish before it is too late? how can i lower my PH?

[bertoni]

I would do some water changes, and doublecheck the pH result. If nothing's been added to the tank, I don't see why the pH should rise. Did you measure the pH of your freshly-mixed saltwater? How are you measuring pH?

Vinegar can be used to lower pH temporarily, but if your pH measurement is off, adding vinegar might do more harm than good.

I limit water changes to 20-25% to reduce stress on the animals.

[jjakes24]

I added a PH 8.2 buffer to my new salt water and it seemed fine. I am using RO/DI water also. How much of a water change should I do? How much vinegar can I use?

[bertoni]

Okay, I would avoid the use of buffers. They can spike the pH, and despite the labeling, they don't have any magic to limit the spike to pH 8.2.

I would do a series of 20% water changes. If you go the vinegar route, which is more dangerous, I'd start at about 1/8 tsp and see what effect it has.

[WaterKeeper]

Ok Jakes,

Don't add buffer to freshly made ASW or to RO/DI for that matter. It is not needed. The water changes will bring things back to normal. I like to use soda water over vinegar as there is less chance of a bacteria bloom. I use about 1 once for every 10 gallons of water and recheck pH after about an hour. If it is still up add another once and so on. That said, I really don't think that pH should be a problem for a damsel. High pH effects inverts more than fish. How long have you had it? Check the gills and see if they are inflamed. If so it may have ich or velvet. Even if you had the fish for awhile sometimes these diseases are introduced when adding an invert of LR. The other possibility could be low dissolved oxygen. Increase circulation if you can and see if that helps.

[jjakes24]

i am working on the water changes now. going to try and change 20% every day. Also, good point about the oxygen level, I have a skilter on it which is useless as a simmer so i put the airline in the water and just use it for water movement. I will try opening the airline again and see if that can help the oxygen levels.

[jjakes24]

UPDATE: I got the PH back down to 8.2 with some vinager. Now, I made a batch of water for a 20% water change and have it at 1.024 salinity. I tested the PH on the new water which was made with RO/DI water and it is at 7.8. Is there anything i should be doing to get this higher before making the water change? I used Oceanic Salt. I also have my skilter running again to get some oxygen into the water. Oh yeah, I had this damsel in the tank for about 3 months now and never had a problem. There does not seem to be any signs of Ick, he is just breathing heavy.

[jjakes24]

Did 20% water change, did not touch the PH. Damsel stillsort of looks the same, heavy breathing but no signs of ICK. No spots anywhere. I am running out of ideas and hope he makes it through the night. I'll letyou know if he looks any better tomorrow. Anyone have any other ideas on how to save this guy?

[bertoni]

Hard to say. You could try an oxygen test at some point, but it could well be a disease.

[jjakes24]

well, he made it through the night. still doesn't look that great but maybe a little better. Plan on doing another 20% change when I get home but he has no noticable spots or anything on him. Doesn't appear to be Ich. Any other ideas of any other kind of disease? He just seems to be breathing heavy and is bothered by the lights. when the lights come on, he hides under the rocks. He is just sitting in one place.

[v8maro]

IMO take him out or let him die. Those fish are nothing but trouble in the fact that they are so teritorial. I had one in my 50gal and he beat up any fish I added, guess who got flushed?

[Randall_James]

Originally posted by v8maro
IMO take him out or let him die. Those fish are nothing but trouble in the fact that they are so teritorial. I had one in my 50gal and he beat up any fish I added, guess who got flushed?

they are going to roast you for that one

FYI
I do 50% water changes on my 24G without any problems, I do match salinity and temp however very closely, it seems to have no negative affect on the tank inhabitants, in fact they seem to like the debris it stirs up off the sand bed, feeding frenzy

[v8maro]

Originally posted by Randall_James
they are going to roast you for that one

FYI
I do 50% water changes on my 24G without any problems, I do match salinity and temp however very closely, it seems to have no negative affect on the tank inhabitants, in fact they seem to like the debris it stirs up off the sand bed, feeding frenzy

Eh, I don't care, he was a nuisance more than anything. Beating up on every single fish, killed one, would eat and **** more than I’ve ever seen. I tried to spear him I hated him so much. It took me 2 months to catch him since they are fast little f'ers. But once I got him there is no way he was going back in the tank, and the LFS said they didn’t want him, so it was swirly time. I really don't think it's a big deal since these guys are used as feeder fish once in a while. He was a blue devil damsel. F him.

[jjakes24]

I guess its just a waiting game now to see if anything develops.

[bertoni]

Just as a note, I think you should kill the animal by putting it into a cup of water and then into the freezer. I suppose in Michigan the odds of causing a problem are fairly low, though.

[Randall_James]

I guess there was always the "nuclear" option,

Glass of water and a microwave

[v8maro]

Sorry, I just have no respect for that fish. I do however like the 3stripe, even tho they do seem to be a little bit more agressive.

[jjakes24]

Well, this guy is still alive after two days. He doesn't seem to be breathing as heavy but still just sitting in one place under a rock. All water parameters are fine and everything else in the tank is doing great. Still at a loss on this one.

[v8maro]

honestly man, do you really like this fish? Are you planning on adding any other fish to the tank or is this THE fish you want? If it's the fish you want you can try some non-chemical help like doing a freshwater dip to remove parasites, but other than that wait it out. Those fish are pretty hardy and if they are going to die you probably couldn't have saved it anyways. Like i said before, cool fish, but a pain in the *** with others. I'd say dont sweat it and buy a nicer more behaved fish.

[Harmsway]

The best thing you can do for an ill fish is treat him in a seperate hospital tank. The approach of doing water changes is making the assumption the fish is fine and the water quality is bad. Yet you don't know that. So I recommend that you place the fish in a smaller tank and try to identify the illness so you can begin treatment as soon as possible.

Even though he is now only in a 10 gallon tank you can not treat him because of the other inhabitants. Also just because you don't see any spots/desease dosn't mean he hasn't got it. Maytimes the parasites attack the gills where you are unable to see.

If you truly don't know where to start try dropping the salinity in the hospital tank and see if that offers relief. You first objective is to ID the illness so you can provide proper treatment.

Gene

[phisigs79]

on the plus side if its dies least you finally caught him since they are hard to catch!

[jjakes24]

Well, the battle is over. We lost the damsel. I tried a fresh water dip to see if that would relieve him at all and it really did nothing. I am starting to think the big water change was the cause but I Am not sure. I want to get another fish to put in there but I am worried that if the damsel was diseased, then the new fish would be doomed as soon as I put him in there. Water quality still looks good and all of my inverts and shrimp are doing just fine, nowbad signs at all. Would it be ok to put another fish in there?

[Randall_James]

Sorry for your loss,

About the only way the big water change could be the cause is if it was way out of whack with what was already in the tank. The 8.8 ph was pretty oddball high.

Salinity temp or if as you had said, you aged it for a couple days. Perhaps the oxygen was depleted (contradicts the high ph however) or something got in the tank. Is the time of year for the annual "candle warnings"

If it was salinity, I think your inverts would have gone toes up so to speak. I would guess the guy was in trouble before the water change. Also, doing the fw dip on a fish that is in a lot of distress already could be enough to finish them off.

[bertoni]

If the fish had some sort of disease, you'd need to quarantine the tank for a while to try to make sure the disease is gone. That would be 6-8 weeks for ich, for example.