Can Kalk be used to fully supplement Ca and Alk?

[wojo]

Or adding daily Ca & Alk will always be an issue. I bought Kalk reactor and i have absolutely no luck keeping up with my levels. I still have to dose B-ionic two-part every day...

Thoughts are welcomed.

[bertoni]

That depends on how much calcium and alkalinity the tank consumes, which varies a lot. Mixing limewater by hand might provide a more potent mix than the kalk reactor, and vinegar can be used to increase the concentration, in most cases. This article covers lime:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php

[wojo]

so if my Ca and Alk drops and i drip kalk by topping off it means i consume more than it provides. does that mean i HAVE TO keep dosing B-Ionic?

[bertoni]

Well, there are other alternatives, like a CO2-driven calcium reactor.

[mattboy]

If you look for Randy's article "an improved 2 part..." you will find a substitute for b-ionic that's much less expensive; the ingredients are baking soda, certain brands of de-icer (dowflake calcium chloride) and water.

Most reefkeepers keeping stony corals under high light find that KW alone is not enough to replace the calciumand carbonate used by the corals.

[twon8]

you can also add a fan to increase evaporation and thus increase your alkalinity supplementation.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do you know if your reactor is producing saturated limewater? many do not, and that is a drawback of using a reactor for limewater, as opposed to just delivering it from a reservoir of limewater. Conductivity of the effluent is the best way to go. pH can be used as a crude measure.

Limewater is all that I dose to my system, but folks with a large amount of SPS and lowish evaporation may not be able to keep pace with the demand.

[ralphie16]

randy, the reactors supply the kalkwater to the tank slowly as water evaporates. you say you are dosing from a reservoir instead. since we are supposed to be adding this mixture slowly (so as to not increase ph too rapidly), are you using a doser or just manually putting in small amounts through the day?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I use a very slow pump (few gallons per day max) attached to a float switch, so I dose it slowly 24/7 as needed to replace evaporation.

[1SickReefer]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
I use a very slow pump (few gallons per day max) attached to a float switch, so I dose it slowly 24/7 as needed to replace evaporation.

I copied Randy's method to the T. It has worked great for me so far. 44g Brute filled every 3-4 weeks. Stir, cover and dose, controlled by an in-sump float switch, ACIII and an IKS peri pump.

I tried the GEO kalk reactor, for me it was easier to just dose from the still container. it lasts longer and less maintenance and keeps it's potency much longer without the need to "stir every hour for 4mins"

With all that said, I still had to add a Ca reactor to keep my level up.

[ralphie16]

so you mix up a big batch and store it in a container and have a small pump sitting in it that replaces the evaporation.

since you use only a small amount, how much do you mix up each time? your article says if it is covered and not aerated then there should not be too much to fear with mixing up pretty large amounts, right? you recmmend not to mix up more then you use in how long? a month? 2 weeks?

[1SickReefer]

Originally posted by ralphie16
so you mix up a big batch and store it in a container and have a small pump sitting in it that replaces the evaporation.

since you use only a small amount, how much do you mix up each time? your article says if it is covered and not aerated then there should not be too much to fear with mixing up pretty large amounts, right? you recommend not to mix up more then you use in how long? a month? 2 weeks?

Well not a pump in it, but above it, you can see my kalk container here and the yellow IKS peri pump that "pulls" the solution from the Brute.



I fill the 44g full, dump in 3 cups of kalk stir for a few minutes into a nice whirlpool cover it and leave it., what does not dissolve settles to the bottom.

The mix remains undisturbed till it is gone which is about 3 - 4 weeks depending on the weather and the amount of evap.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

since you use only a small amount, how much do you mix up each time? your article says if it is covered and not aerated then there should not be too much to fear with mixing up pretty large amounts, right? you recmmend not to mix up more then you use in how long? a month? 2 weeks?

I make up 88 gallons at a time, that lasts 2-4 weeks, depending on the season. It will last longer.

[ralphie16]

What I do not see in the method that uses limewater to replace evaportion is the ability to control the calcium and alk levels in the tank because the dosing of the limewater is entirely dependent on the amount of evap.

I see the problem where you do not have enough evaporation to keep up with the ca & alk levels and therefore have to supplment with the 2-part.

But what about the scenario where you do NOT have too much requirements for calcium, but since evap is constant (for the most part), the amount of limewater addition cannot change, so would it be feasible to make a less concentrated mixture? randy, i saw you wrote in another thread you use half-saturated limewater. so you just use half the amount of llimewater? doesnt it still settle to the bottom?

If I explained myself properly, what do you do if the limewater adds more calcium then you need? Would elevated levels over 400 be detrimental or its a fact that some limewater users have to live with?

[ralphie16]

for example, you have the ability to change the amount of the 2-part additive you add to the tank so that you maintain the levels you want.

with limewater it seems you have no control.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What I do not see in the method that uses limewater to replace evaportion is the ability to control the calcium and alk levels in the tank because the dosing of the limewater is entirely dependent on the amount of evap.

You can control the amount of solid lime in the limewater. That's what I do.

Also, the dose is not critical. Excess limewater raises pH and alkalinity, and that increases demand by both corals and abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate. So there is a negative feedback loop. More so than with a CaCO3/CO2 reactor because of the pH rise.

[wojo]

Ok guys, i read the posts and i thank you for your suggestions,

here is where i am standing now. the Kalk reactor is producing a mix which ph is 12.3. my ph peaks to 8.7 during the day and drops to 8.2 at night. i stopped adding the b-ionic 2 part this sunday and the Ca and Alk are pretty stable at Ca: 300 and Alk of 2.0 meq/l. pretty low. but when i add one of each b-ionic doses the ph goes up every time and the Ca and Alk are back to this low level the next day or two.

now, i have no idea what my magnesium is at (i dont have a test), i dont have many corals (1 lg, 2 med softies and 8 small SPS frags) that would consume that much of my Ca and Alk.

i do remember before i started using Kalk my Ca was always off the charts (>500) and Alk was always low 2.5 so i mostly added Alk and every other time i added Ca.

hope this helps to resolve this right now i unplugged the Kalk reactor and i am topping off with fresh water to see if my Ph will drop as i dont want to keep adding b-ionic as it will only raise the ph... good idea or bad, or should i add baking soda to drop it first?

thanks

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It is hard to get accurate pH measurements at pH 12+ if you calibrated at lower values. Assuming the calibration is perfect, and the temp is 25 deg C, that would not be saturated limewater. One better way to compare is to make saturated limewater (say, 2 teaspoons in a cup of RO/DI), and compare to the effluent pH at the same temperature. A difference of 0.3 pH units is a factor of two in potency.

If that 300 ppm is accurate, you need to boost the calcium to 420 ppm or so with calcium chloride. No amount of limewater or B-ionic (both parts) will be able to boost the calcium that much, because alkalinity will get too high, initiating precipitation of calcium carbonate and dropping the calcium again.

You could also just use the calcium part of the B-ionic, but that is more expensive than calcium chloride.

[ralphie16]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
What I do not see in the method that uses limewater to replace evaportion is the ability to control the calcium and alk levels in the tank because the dosing of the limewater is entirely dependent on the amount of evap.

You can control the amount of solid lime in the limewater. That's what I do.

Also, the dose is not critical. Excess limewater raises pH and alkalinity, and that increases demand by both corals and abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate. So there is a negative feedback loop. More so than with a CaCO3/CO2 reactor because of the pH rise.

1) So as your tanks calcium requirements change, you change the amount of lime you mix in the water? What do you do like test every month or so and then change the ratio?

2) If there is a negative feed back loop then why are you using this method instead of your 2part additives? i don't get it, is limewater just an easier method so less work on the hobby's part? or is it chemically more sound to use?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So as your tanks calcium requirements change, you change the amount of lime you mix in the water? What do you do like test every month or so and then change the ratio?

If necessary. As I mentioned, there is a big negative feedback loop with limewater, so exact dosing is really not that critical. A huge number of folks just replace all evaporated water with saturated limewater and the tanks stabilize just fine.

If there is a negative feed back loop then why are you using this method instead of your 2part additives? i don't get it, is limewater just an easier method so less work on the hobby's part? or is it chemically more sound to use?

I want to have my top off water automated. Once that is accomplished, it takes only a few minutes each few weeks to add lime into that top off water. Simple and easy.

[wojo]

I will try the 2 teaspoon comparsion when i get home. Do i do flat teaspoons or full ones?

Won't adding B-ionic part 2 (calcium) be affecting the Alk to go lower?

As far as price goes yes, it would be more expensive but i really need to get this straighten out, i am lost at this moment.

I just dont know what to do cuz adding one will affect the other. Please help suggesting the best strategy to bring both levels up to where they should be with the proper pH. once i get them up where they should be we can see what can be done to maintain it.

thanks Randy for your help

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
It is hard to get accurate pH measurements at pH 12+ if you calibrated at lower values. Assuming the calibration is perfect, and the temp is 25 deg C, that would not be saturated limewater. One better way to compare is to make saturated limewater (say, 2 teaspoons in a cup of RO/DI), and compare to the effluent pH at the same temperature. A difference of 0.3 pH units is a factor of two in potency.

If that 300 ppm is accurate, you need to boost the calcium to 420 ppm or so with calcium chloride. No amount of limewater or B-ionic (both parts) will be able to boost the calcium that much, because alkalinity will get too high, initiating precipitation of calcium carbonate and dropping the calcium again.

You could also just use the calcium part of the B-ionic, but that is more expensive than calcium chloride.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I will try the 2 teaspoon comparsion when i get home. Do i do flat teaspoons or full ones?

Doesn't matter. That puts in way more than can dissolve, to be sure it is saturated.

The calcium part of B-ionic has no impact on pH. The alkalinity part raises pH.

[wojo]

thanks Randy,

i knew about the Ca not affecting Ph but doesn;t it lower the Alk?

so what would the game plan would be if you were in my situation. would you try to raise Ca to 420 today, lower the pH with something and then add part 1 (b-ionic) to raise the Alk, and then plug in the Kalk reactor and see what happens?

thanks

[bertoni]

You can raise the alkalinity with baking soda, which will have a minimal effect on pH. The calcium supplement likewise will have no noticeable effect on the alkalinity. I'd do both of those now.

The high pH is an issue. More aeration might (or might not) help:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.php

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

i knew about the Ca not affecting Ph but doesn;t it lower the Alk?

No. At least not until a coral or something else takes up that calcium and a carbonate to produce calcium carbonate.