Who was in the wrong?

[Criminal_Colt]

Man if the employee was wrong then he was plain lying. This comes as absolutely no suprise. I have never not for 6 years (ever since I had my own money to spend) asked a shop assistant for advice in ANY store for exactly this kind of reason. Their job is to SELL, not to ASSIST.

He's full of **** and so is the manager.

You DEFINATLY did the right thing.

Colt

[selgado]

Come to think of it, I rarely ask for assistance either. I usually just ask the name of the coral then go home and research it and make my buying decision from there.

Where is shappy anyway. We haven't heard from him since starting the post.

What do you think shappy? After all this discussion are you changing your original stance on the issue? Are you open to change or are you the stubborn, set-in-your-ways type?

[ub32965]

The couples tanks hasn't even got a chance to cycle yet. To host a coral of any type. I worked at petco as a second job ( I Know..don't bash me on their care for animals) I would always turn down sales because i felt that the customer was not ready for the care of the animals, or even have the proper setup yet. I got called in the office many times for turning away an animal buy and having the customer buy the book first. I feel you were right in telling the customer, and i don't think they should have banned you for preventing one sale.

[selgado]

Sure it's morally wrong to ban someone from a store just for striking up a conversation about products. I'm sure the LFS wouldn't object if that conversation led to a sale. The question is did shappy simply strike up a conversation or did he do or say something more damaging?

The fact is that business have the legal and moral right to operate without disruption from anyone in or around the store whether or not their advice or opinions are moral. That's why the law will not allow you to stand by a store's front door or inside the store and picket - you must be on public property. Thats also why the store has the legal right to ban you from a store and prosecute you for trespassing if you return.

And it's not fair to the store for an employee to discourage sales. When you hired in to petco, did you state that you believe in discouraging sales to customers who were unqualified by your standards? Did you ask them if it's OK to do so? Or did you not stand up for what's right until after you got the job? Do you believe you can not teach someone everything they need to know to begin their hobby on their first visit to the store?

Whether he was right or not in saying something doesn't change the fact that he was banned from the store. It sounds like shappy had a lot more to lose than he realized. Being right does no good if you lose your audience.

[autofish]

Look, here's the deal:

Did you do something wrong? No, I don't believe so. In other hobbies, I've done the same thing. There is nothing wrong, morally or otherwise, with this. However, you have to consider the big picture. The animal was not saved, it's life was merely extended a short while longer. You may have saved this particular couple $70, but you didn't save the animal from the next person who walks in there and buys it. The end result of this situation is a couple of complete strangers you'll never see again may be grateful, but your bridge is severely charred, relationship damaged, and the animal is still going to die.

I'm not saying you did anything wrong. I think your actions were ethical, and it sounds like your wife could use a lesson in morality.

However, since you knew the owner so well, I would have handled this a different way - with a personal chat about his employee's ethics and how they reflect on him. In fact, I probably would have called him right then and there. But, what's done is done. I'd suggest a phone call, or dropping by the store when you know the owner will be there. Talk to him about what happened. Explain that his employee was trying to sell this animal to someone whose tank wasn't even cycled, and see what his response is. As others have said, you have no idea what his employee said to him. She probably lied. Or maybe she didn't, and he's not the good guy you thought he was.

[ub32965]

And it's not fair to the store for an employee to discourage sales. When you hired in to petco, did you state that you believe in discouraging sales to customers who were unqualified by your standards? Did you ask them if it's OK to do so? Or did you not stand up for what's right until after you got the job? Do you believe you can not teach someone everything they need to know to begin their hobby on their first visit to the store?

In my interview I said I'll not sale an animal to a person who is not familar with them or does not have the proper setup. I also told them that i would recomand a book before i would encourage a sale.

[selgado]

That's fair enough.

[Dan Palacios]

i overheard a fish store employee tell a customer that even-though he will advice against sell a fish, he was still obligated to sell them them the fish. It was their money and their decision. He was able to postpone the sell till a later date after explaining that the fish would die if kept in faulty water. He advice them to check their water parameters first.

[reefpeep2004]

This sort of thing comes up all the time, since I frequent about 5 LFS on a weekly basis. LFS owners know I will give advice when I see someone obviously new and at a loss. None of them have been bothered by my honesty yet, because they know that while I might discourage someone new from buying a dendro, mandarin, or goni....I will also take the customer over to some corals that I know they'll be successful with. My excitement and own experience comes through, and the customer usually leaves with several corals they now have confidence in.
I think the key is not to tell a customer the LFS is lying, or "don't buy that"....but to get some info about their setup and experience and give them an example of what "worked for you".

The LFS doesn't care if they sell the goni, as long as they sell something I've saved a lot of tangs from going home to 12g. nanocubes....LOL.

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

reefpeep2004, that's it, really. A good LFS won't sell somebody a tang with a 12 gal Nano, but they darn sure will sell them something else. You don't have to turn away sales if you're ethical, you need to redirect sales to something that will work for the customer.

I mean a good hardware store isn't going to try to sell you a table saw blade that won't work on your power saw just to "make a sale." If you ask for their help, they're going to redirect you to the right kind of blade for your power saw.

[Jader]

great, now youre banned from that fish store because you tried to flex some know-how in front of some n00bs. let them make their own mistakes.

since the way that LFS operates is already apparent, the coral would have been sold anyway. selling stuff to inexperienced customers is wack and will come back to the store to haunt them in the long run.

sounds like a lose-lose situation to me. if i owned any kind of store i would have banned your *** too for that behavior. do you pay rent on the store or overhead costs? then ****, go buy online and get out.

[DgenR8]

Jader,
[welcome]
In your future posts, keep in mind that we run a family friendly BB here. Giving the profanity filters a work out is not against our UA, but it is frowned on.

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

Originally posted by Jader
sounds like a lose-lose situation to me. if i owned any kind of store i would have banned your *** too for that behavior. do you pay rent on the store or overhead costs? then ****, go buy online and get out.

Easy to say, but harder to do. Start banning customers for minor problems (I would say a major problem is something like shoplifiting, for example) and pretty soon you won't have enough customers, particularly when you factor in word of mouth.

[electric eel]

sounds like a lose-lose situation to me. if i owned any kind of store i would have banned your *** too for that behavior. do you pay rent on the store or overhead costs? then ****, go buy online and get out.

Jader you need to get a clue.... who DO you think pays the rent and the overhead??? ITS THE CUSTOMER.
Personally I think shappy did the right thing.
Being new to the hobby I would not have recognized the "advice" given by the sales person as being in error. The same could be said of others more experienced in the hobby... but maybe not with the particular specimen in question.
That is the reason I am on here reading. I can read books forever but not gain the insight I gain from reading about someones EXPERIENCE.
This is an expensive hobby... and I would appreciate it if someone came up to me in a LFS and told me "that is wayyy over your ability to keep alive at this point".
Nothing is more discouraging than learning you "wasted" money on something you couldnt keep alive. Or on a piece of equipment others, through experience, have learned will not perform in the way I would like it to. I am sure there are many out there who have quit the hobby for this very reason.
Not withstanding the monetary issue.. I think it admirable that someone would try to "save" a coral that was destined for sure death in the hands of an inexperienced noob. And I am not offended by someone pointing out my inexperience, or lack of ability. I am not aware of anyone who was born with the knowledge or experience.
I think store owners have a responsibility... not only to make sure their customers are informed and educated.. but to the animals they sell.. and to the hobby that provides them with the income that allows them to stay in business.

Also... if anyone knows of a business that can pay the rent and overhead without customers... please let me know. I would be VERY interested in learning more about it.

[selgado]

Originally posted by electric eel
Jader you need to get a clue.... who DO you think pays the rent and the overhead??? ITS THE CUSTOMER.
Personally I think shappy did the right thing.
Being new to the hobby I would not have recognized the "advice" given by the sales person as being in error. The same could be said of others more experienced in the hobby... but maybe not with the particular specimen in question.

What would make you take the advice of one person you never met before over the advice of another person you never met before? Makes no sense. The fact is human nature usually dictates that whenever a negative opinion is given about a buying decision, usually you will not buy. You state this principle of human interaction very well in your first couple of sentences. If you look at your own personal experiences you are at least more leary of the purchase whether the person knows what they are talking about or not. So then what is a store to do when they have some one in the store that is a self-proclaimed "know-it-all" that really doesn't know much and actively contradicts the stores employees and thus interferes with the operation of the business?

That is the reason I am on here reading. I can read books forever but not gain the insight I gain from reading about someones EXPERIENCE.

This is where the opinions, advice and experiences about LFS's belongs. And in club meetings. Not taking away a business's right to operate disruption free. You just have to trust that word of mouth will make them amend their ways or go out of business. It's not so much "speak your mind" rule of thumb that gets you its the "think before you speak (and act)" rule. And you have to accept the consequences when you don't do the latter.

This is an expensive hobby... and I would appreciate it if someone came up to me in a LFS and told me "that is wayyy over your ability to keep alive at this point". Nothing is more discouraging than learning you "wasted" money on something you couldnt keep alive. Or on a piece of equipment others, through experience, have learned will not perform in the way I would like it to. I am sure there are many out there who have quit the hobby for this very reason.
Not withstanding the monetary issue.. I think it admirable that someone would try to "save" a coral that was destined for sure death in the hands of an inexperienced noob. And I am not offended by someone pointing out my inexperience, or lack of ability. I am not aware of anyone who was born with the knowledge or experience.

See first response above

I think store owners have a responsibility... not only to make sure their customers are informed and educated.. but to the animals they sell.. and to the hobby that provides them with the income that allows them to stay in business.

You say this, but according to your previous statements, you will take the advice of a fellow customer and perfect stranger over the LFS.

Also... if anyone knows of a business that can pay the rent and overhead without customers... please let me know. I would be VERY interested in learning more about it.

This is exactly why you can not have other customers actively boycotting or maliciously contradicting employees.

[Bubafat]

Originally posted by Mud Shrimp Moe
FWIW, I think it was the employee who did the bad thing. Many of those guys are on commission and so maybe he was the one lying here.

Not to sound disagreeable, but I honestly doubt he/she was on commission. If so than I must have been totally unlucky in finding the right fish store to work at. I worked at 5 different LFS's for a total of 7 years and never got any commission...and not to sound cocky, but I was quite good at my job.

With that said, there is a LOT of misinformation floating about. Someone heard something who told someone that this is easy to keep. It usually stems from employee-employee advice which then gets passed on to customers. I found that LFS employee's who have been in the business for many years are still ignorant of many issues in the hobby. Heck, I thought I was the king after keeping a reef tank for only 5 months...I even went so far as to telling Julian Sprung that he didn't know what he was talking about when it comes to iodine dosing (lets just say I was only 16 and ignorant at the time of who Julian Sprung WAS).

Some LFS's still tell me that skilters are good skimmers, that yellow tangs are fine in 55 gallon tanks, and that moorish idols are easy to keep. There are three solutions that I can see to this problem:

1. Avoid the LFS at all costs. Order ONLY online from REPUTABLE places. This is the easy approach, and I must regretfully say, the approach I have resorted to. Alabama doesn't have any good marine LFS's and NONE have even heard of captive bred I think.

2. TRY to educate your LFS. This is a tough sale as many employees’ feel that they are superior to you in knowledge. Don't just tell them that this and that is true as most won't believe you, bring in books, articles, print off sheets of things written. Even if you do this, many still won't listen to you. But the clincher to the deal...bring in pictures of your BEAUTIFUL SPS dominating reef tank with you standing by it. You don't own a beautiful SPS dominating reef tank you say? Well, go to someone’s house and get a pic with it. I think this white lie will prove to be very useful in swaying an employee's opinion of your knowledge of reefs.

3. Frequent your LFS and try to educate the customers. Be discrete though. Give them reefcentral.com address or even you phone number. Hard sells will only **** off the LFS as we have all seen.


In response to Shappy's original post, stating that the LFS has "banned" them...I would like to see any business enforce that. I really doubt they would call the cops on you...and if they wouldn't sell something to you, you could make quite a stink in the checkout isle, making the LFS look very bad.


Good luck.

matt

[electric eel]

Selgado you make some interesting points.
I was not stating a "principle of human interaction". I will admit, negativity from any person has an influence on others, whether justified or not.
The point I was trying to make is.. when seeking advice on a problem I am having with my automobile.. for example.. I dont go the the salesman at the dealership.. I go to the mechanic.
I am not trying to proclaim all LFS employees as inexperienced or unknowledgeable, merely that their position there is as a sales rep. As an example I hold out the post by Bubafat. He worked in a LFS and was "experienced" in his own personal pursuit of the hobby. As I stated... I place a higher value on personal experience than I do knowledge gained from a book.
Yet you raise a valid point , in that I have no way of determining which of either person involved was speaking from experience or knowledge.
In reading this thread, even with my inexperience, it was an easy conclusion (in my mind) that a lfs employee recommending a Goni to a customer with a two week old tank did not have either the knowledge OR the experience. This is however, my own opinion. As I stated earlier I do not "know" which was correct, but would have to question the advice given by the employee.
I dont take the advice of any ONE person on ANY thing I am considering investing money in. The same regard applies to any LFS that has been "rated " in this forum. Common sense dictates that extenuating circumstances might be the mitigating factor of negative OR positive comments. As in any "opinion" forum one must remember that it is exactly that.."opinion".
I could raise a question in response to your post; "Why is it of all the posts made on this thread, you chose mine to dissect and perform an analytical study on????" Makes no sense.
Yet in light of the fact this is a public forum, where every opportunity is granted equally to all, to post their opinions, I respect your right to do so. The question "why" still remains. It is one thing to challenge "facts". It is quite another (and probably futile) to challenge "opinion".

[selgado]

Originally posted by electric eel
I could raise a question in response to your post; "Why is it of all the posts made on this thread, you chose mine to dissect and perform an analytical study on????" Makes no sense.
Yet in light of the fact this is a public forum, where every opportunity is granted equally to all, to post their opinions, I respect your right to do so. The question "why" still remains. It is one thing to challenge "facts". It is quite another (and probably futile) to challenge "opinion".

That's a very keen observation and very funny. That was actually the first time I've ever tried that approach to conversation. I guess I was just in rare form. I really appreciate the content of your post and your kind conversation. Sometimes it seems impossible to be able to get into the meat of an issue and still retain civility.

What I would really like to hear is shappy's comments after all this discussion. We haven't heard from him since he started this thread. Bet he never figured it would go on for 4 pages so far.

[DC321]

I would have done the same thing.

[electric eel]

thanks Selgado, I have a hard time myself determining what advice or opinion to give merit to, so you did heighten my awareness to how I deal with that.
I hope I didnt come off as confrontational, I just thought an employee of a lfs should be knowledgeable, and it certainly wasnt my place to say whether the employee in question was or wasnt. Possibly it was someone new to the hobby, and I would not be aware of that. I was probably too judgemental, and responded without enough thought.
I enjoy the forum and the wealth of info available here, and am here to learn more and maybe make some new friends who share my interests.

I would love to hear how this situation turned out and if shappy was able to resolve the problem.
I apologize if I offended anyone or became offended over anything in the thread.

[filishy]

I would have done and have done the same thing in the past. I am a small business owner albeit not a FLS (perhaps, one day...). I believe it is wrong to sell animals that are just not going to make it in certain conditions and even worse, allow employees to lie about them in order to make a sell.

I run my own business and I rather sell someone a service that is cheaper but better suited for their needs than to sell them something else twice the price when I know that I have something else cheaper that can solve their problems. Does that make any commercial sense? For some people it might not but I sleep better at night... still not making any real money out of this store but again, I sleep better at night.

And by the way, for some poster in the first page who mentioned something about genders... I am a Woman.

[shappy]

Hi all,
Well I didn't think this one would be going for this long. Anyway I tried to do this behind the Saleswomans back. I told the couple while she was busy elsewhere. They then informed her. I can see where the loss of a sale would upset a business owner however I did not discourage a sale. I just encouraged them to make a better purchase. I was trying to help a couple noobs save some money and discouragement. Some of the stuff I did not like about the hobby when I started. Thanks everyone for you opinions. I have actually been in touch with the owner since then a couple of times and I think he understands where I was coming from. I still do not frequent the store any longer(to buy) but it never was one of my favorites. I actually sold the store a crap load of devils hand frags a couple of weekends ago. We still do not get together anymore but maybe with time. I just feel sorry for noobs that get robbed of their money on bad advice but I do understand that with out the buy-kill-buy cycle of some hobbiest there would be less stores/demand around. For the time being I have decided to just give them the URL to RC and hope they research on their own.

[Harleqin 41]

I would have done the same thing. Any one that is going to open up a fish or reef store should know what they are doing, if they don't then they have no buss. opening one up. That is one of the reasons why are hobby has such a high turnover rate.

[menelaus22]

you ought to divorce the wife and open your own LFS. Screw em' both!

[Fzech]

You did rite thing. And thank you for being a responsible hobbyist.

Thanks, Fzech