Help Petco

[vitz]

Originally posted by Flipturn88
Can you please show me an example of that? I have never seen such from them before. thanks


Actually I was reading a reefing magazine in Barnes and Noble and they wrote an article about their findings from aquaculturing corals (aka research), and in no place did they attempt to sell any of their products. They also showed how to make your own reef structures from around-the-house supplies and local findings; they didn't suggest that people order from them, but rather create their own.

just the use of the word 'bulletproof' is more than enough for me to know a charlatan when i see one nothing, especially environments as dynamic as a reef tank, can ever be considered as being even mildly 'bulletproof'

those who think it's possible have very little life experience w/'bullets'


barne's and noble is NOT a research publication, nor are any of the works they publish they are a commercial for profit publishing company for books and magazines, and confer no validity on anything whatsoever with regards to it's being labeled research reefkeeping magazines are not research publications, either


please cite me one RESEARCH publication garf has participated in, i.e.- one that's published as a publication of research for the scientific community

any experienced reefkeeper will tell you that recommending 4 NO flouro tubes on a 55 for a reef tank, even if only for the 1st yr., is incredibly stupid, amateurish, and just plain bad and incorrect advice

'bulletproof' my a**


garf is the petco of information for beginning reefers

[Flipturn88]

Here is a letter from the homepage of GARF:

"Hello, This is LeRoy. It is July 4, and we are asking for your help.
We need to contact many coral farmers who may want to be part of a new research project. If you own a one tank farm and sell to your local stores, or if you have a ocean based farm please Email: leroy@garf.org

We are now 8 years into a 10 year research project, that started with and still does, supply information about Coral Farming. Our goal has been to help enough Coral Farmers, so that our industry can produce the vast majority of the marine life we need for a rapidily growing industry."


BTW, They don't claim to have it all down, or to know everything about reefing. Anyone who does is foolish, because the more you learn in this hobby, the more you realize how little you truly know.

I am done with this subject because I have better things to do with my time than argue about a company that has only good intentions of helping this hobby.

Happy Reefing!

[wds21921]

The comments were not directly realted to you but to another individual but since you seem to thrive on this showmanship of cut and paste I will try to simply reply by saying that in the incidence of Petco, if your willing to allow Petco to hire completely uneducated people what do you think they're going to tell customers?
Most likely whatever there boss or another uneducated employee told them. I'll let that stand as it is.

The only one who sees my comments as an immature personal attack are you so I can't answer for your personal shortcomings or problems.

I never implied that Petco was a repsonsible group, again you're using broad generalizations and completely taking things out of context for the sake of personal showmanship. Anyone on here has the ability to cut and paste but instead of trying to show how savvy we are with Windows, we attempt to discuss things in the context of improvement or at least debate. You on the other hand seem to only want to rip every comment apart and create negative comments. Not just with me but with anyone who offers an opinion you do not like.

I'll discuss anything you'd like and maybe your right and maybe I'm wrong but if your intentions are to sit here and disect every persons post for your own enjoyment, to try and impress anyone, you may be falling just a tad bit short of your goals.

[Thales]

Originally posted by wds21921
[B]The comments were not directly realted to you but to another individual but since you seem to thrive on this showmanship of cut and paste

Why continue with the insults? Cant we just have a discussion.
If you make general statements you gotta expect general responses.
And its not cut and paste, quoting is a handy helpful feature of phpbb and other boards.

I will try to simply reply by saying that in the incidence of Petco, if your willing to allow Petco to hire completely uneducated people what do you think they're going to tell customers?

I am not allowing Petco anything. They like to hire drudge workers, and they do their best to stifle people who know more. Over and over again somebody writes about their experience of working at Petco just to have their good intentions blocked and eventually leave from frustration.
Again, if a person really wants to have a positive effect on our hobby and the environment, there are much more productive ways to spend time than working for Petco.

Most likely whatever there boss or another uneducated employee told them.

That is a really, really funny sentence.

I'll let that stand as it is.

I know. What I am wondering is if you have even read and understood the arguments laid out in this thread about how helping Petco by working there as an 'educated' person enables them to damage and kill even more livestock company wide?

The only one who sees my comments as an immature personal attack are you so I can't answer for your personal shortcomings or problems.

How is that not a personal attack?
And, have you really surveyed everyone who has read this thread to make the determination that I am the only one that finds your manner attacking and personal?

I never implied that Petco was a repsonsible group, again you're using broad generalizations and completely taking things out of context for the sake of personal showmanship.

And you are taking a question I asked you and using it as an excuse to attack me again. Remember the question mark at the end of the sentence? That means I want to know what you think. The context was blurry at least, hence the question.

Anyone on here has the ability to cut and paste but instead of trying to show how savvy we are with Windows, we attempt to discuss things in the context of improvement or at least debate.

Boy, you really like to get personal instead of discussing the issue at hand. Plus, you are simply wrong on many levels. It ain't cut and paste, I don't use windows, and you aren't addressing the issues I am questioning you about. So far, you have simply reiterated what you have said before, giving no indication that you have even bothered to consider other viewpoints.

You on the other hand seem to only want to rip every comment apart and create negative comments.

I don't believe responding to what you actually wrote is ripping anything apart, nor do I think my comments have been negitive. I am trying to understand what you are saying, trying to get you to hear another side, and trying to maintain accuracy. I am terribly sorry if you find direct communication to be a bother.

Not just with me but with anyone who offers an opinion you do not like.

Its all effort to accurately understand opinions different than mine, and I do it with anything I don't understand, not simply with things I don't like.

[quote]I'll discuss anything you'd like and maybe your right and maybe I'm wrong but if your intentions are to sit here and disect every persons post for your own enjoyment, to try and impress anyone, you may be falling just a tad bit short of your goals. [quote]

Those are not my motivations. I think it would be better if you looked at what I actually wrote instead of trying to discern nefarious intent. Time and again I have asked you direct questions about the topic at hand. Rarely do you respond, instead you spend your time attacking me as a person. I am at a loss as to how to proceed.

[SOMEthinsFISHY]

comon now let us be nice 2 one another !

[ghostbear29]

well, I had a different experience altogether. the tanks were clean and well kept. Live stock was separated correctly from what ive been reading. And Their inverts were HUGE. Good looking specs. The "other" LFS was more like you were describing.

[vitz]

Originally posted by Flipturn88
Here is a letter from the homepage of GARF:

"Hello, This is LeRoy. It is July 4, and we are asking for your help.
We need to contact many coral farmers who may want to be part of a new research project. If you own a one tank farm and sell to your local stores, or if you have a ocean based farm please Email: leroy@garf.org

We are now 8 years into a 10 year research project, that started with and still does, supply information about Coral Farming. Our goal has been to help enough Coral Farmers, so that our industry can produce the vast majority of the marine life we need for a rapidily growing industry."


BTW, They don't claim to have it all down, or to know everything about reefing. Anyone who does is foolish, because the more you learn in this hobby, the more you realize how little you truly know.

I am done with this subject because I have better things to do with my time than argue about a company that has only good intentions of helping this hobby.

Happy Reefing!

i as well, have better things to do-think i'll go work on my one tank coral farm

[Flipturn88]

Yes Vitz...I checked out your site...very nice.

[DgenR8]

Ten pages long, and I'm thinking this thread has run it's course. I'm going to leave it open for now, but I want to be sure that everyone knows that it is poised on the proverbial brink, and one more post that I see as an attack or insult I will snap the lock.

[Thales]

Thank you Larry.

[wds21921]

Ok Lefty what I'm referring to is the fact that with so many bad LFS's out there offering so much disinformtaion wouldn't it be better if there was at least some voice out there with some good education at least? Most likely through Petco I would think Matt would reach more people at least in quantity most likely? It's a start.

Having actually been in the hobby for well over 20 years I've seen people who had a backgrounds in water chemistry, Marine Biology, animal husbandry etc. publishing information that is later disproved and sometimes actually harmful.
This is compounded by the fact that what we're trying to do is actually complicated (recreate or sustain life in a closed enviroment succesfully). Sometimes even the information we get isn't always that great either.

Would Matt's efforts be better used somewhere else? I'm sure they could be but is letting Petco continue to do business status quo any better than not doing anything at all? They're going to continue to sell and cater to anyone who will spend the money they want.

If the ultimate idea is to put Petco out of business or to get them to remove fish or saltwater species from there inventory I dont' think that's a reality because of all the extra supplies and equipment they can sell. i.e. profitable material. We on here can decide to not purchase from them in the hopes it will at least make some impact but the results at best will be very minimal and maybe not even noticeable.

My read on it is that Matt's intentions are to at least make some sort of positive impact to potential future hobbyists which is unarguably better than someone who doesn't know anything.

Petco apparently, by other postings, doesn't have a great track record for giving good and correct information or supporting people who do so. Do we give up and just let it keep perpetuating is my question, or do we keep trying until someone will listen and start to "maybe" change there way of thinking?

Say that by doing that we don't change the way the conduct there business and that concept fails, haven't his efforts at least made some positive impact on at least a few hobbyists which normally wouldn't happen? Isn't something better than nothing at all?

Your proposal that by having one good voice we're going to build on their business and allow say 20 more bad voices to sell animals that will potentially die might be correct. It could also be wrong. There is a chance (again maybe) that Petco could decide to start educating there employess a little more in the future.

I understand your notion that it's going to continue to cause calamity but whether we decide to change that concept or not is going to have even more negative impact if nothing is done because the sales are going to continue regardless.

Doing nothing is a lose-lose situation for everyone, including in the long term Petco. You and I disagree about that I think.

Any company that cannot provide good customer support and quality information is going to limit the extent there customer is going to continue to purchase from them. That is unless they have a unique product. What we're talking about isn't unique, limited perhaps but not unique. Petco or any other bad LFS is going to have a measured existance if they continue to give bad information, sell less than quality type products, and fail to give necessary support.

Petco is a little more unique though because they can supplement there losses for a while by the sales of other type of animal products which are succesful and profitable. This will inherently give them a potentially larger market share, even if only temporary because of the quantity of customers who will visit there stores.

Where are you going to make a larger impact than that by reaching more "potential" hobbyists? My point is to try and reach the customer at the beginning with some decent information BEFORE they start.
The best place for them to start would be by getting involved in a local club first and meeting people who are involved in the hobby and do care about the animals and the impact we make on the industry and the enviroment. The truth is these clubs are not always within reasonable distance, hold limited meetings, and to be honest are sometimes VERY difficult to find. On top of that is the fact that most people like to dive head first into something lol. They'd rather have the instant gratification.

A side benefit for the hobby has been the internet which allows places like this to exist and provide experienced information. I think (and could be wrong) that even when faced with a $1000-$2000 investment people will at best, still only do limited research before they spend the money.
The availability of these type of sites however can also add to the confusion factor i.e. Calurpa, wet/dry, wattage of lights per gallon, etc.

Sorry that was a tangent. Getting back to the original discussion I still believe having some positive impact will spread when measurable success is achieved. Constant negatives will limit the lifecycle of any product, this is a proven fact in all businesses. This is just common sense. Even with a corporation the size of Petco, the potential of there existance still becomes limited at some point.

Maybe this will better explain my reasoning? If not please feel free to post whatever questions you have and we can discuss them point by point.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Any update, Matt?

Am I the only one who PMs around here? I mean, other than to offer a price for something, or to get a buddy to join in on a thread. Why not discuss some of this privately? Or get a room.

[Thales]

Thanks for the effort!
I am going to quote some of your post because it is so long. I don't mean it to argumentitive.

Originally posted by wds21921
Would Matt's efforts be better used somewhere else? I'm sure they could be but is letting Petco continue to do business status quo any better than not doing anything at all?

I'm not advocating doing nothing at all, but that if you want to do something working at Petco isn't a great idea.

They're going to continue to sell and cater to anyone who will spend the money they want.

If the ultimate idea is to put Petco out of business or to get them to remove fish or saltwater species from there inventory I dont' think that's a reality because of all the extra supplies and equipment they can sell. i.e. profitable material.

Sure, but I'm not sure that is a good enough reason to help them. Just because they are in business and going to stay in business doesn't mean we should support them.

We on here can decide to not purchase from them in the hopes it will at least make some impact but the results at best will be very minimal and maybe not even noticeable.

Sure it minimal, but if we don't help them or shop there we are putting our money where our mouth is and I think that counts for something.

Petco apparently, by other postings, doesn't have a great track record for giving good and correct information or supporting people who do so. Do we give up and just let it keep perpetuating is my question, or do we keep trying until someone will listen and start to "maybe" change there way of thinking?

I don't think we should give up, I think we should be trying to stop Petco - in the same way we don't shop at bad LFS.
For the last 6 years I have seen the Petco issue come up on various online boards many many times (and before that I watched it come up over and over again in herp circles). Every time someone tries to change it from within they end up pretty quickly leaving in frustration and Petco keeps chugging along. The problem is that it isn't generally a store to store problem, but a policy problem, and there is no way that working at a store will help change corporate policy.

Say that by doing that we don't change the way the conduct there business and that concept fails, haven't his efforts at least made some positive impact on at least a few hobbyists which normally wouldn't happen? Isn't something better than nothing at all?

I don't think so because helping one Petco helps the entire chain - all the stores benefit. Helping the 'few' customers that come to one Petco also enables all the other Petcos to expand and continue to practice mostly horrible husbandry. The help side of the equation does get a little better, but that also supports the hurt side of the equation.

Your proposal that by having one good voice we're going to build on their business and allow say 20 more bad voices to sell animals that will potentially die might be correct. It could also be wrong. There is a chance (again maybe) that Petco could decide to start educating there employess a little more in the future.

Agreed. I have just seen too many people try (including myself) to believe that working at a Petco will have any meaningful, lasting effect on Policy. Exposing them and putting public pressure on them might.

Doing nothing is a lose-lose situation for everyone, including in the long term Petco. You and I disagree about that I think.

Except I am not advocating doing nothing!

Any company that cannot provide good customer support and quality information is going to limit the extent there customer is going to continue to purchase from them. That is unless they have a unique product. What we're talking about isn't unique, limited perhaps but not unique. Petco or any other bad LFS is going to have a measured existance if they continue to give bad information, sell less than quality type products, and fail to give necessary support.

I agree with you about LFS, but not about chains like Petco that make their money from volume sales. As business move towards volume, customer service and retention become less and less important. They don't care if they lose 10 people because of poor service because there are 100 others that will come simply for the prices. Its the same reason voice mail systems are designed to make you jump through hoops for 5-10 minutes before they put you one hold to talk to someone; they are hoping you just go away so they don't have to deal with you.

Where are you going to make a larger impact than that by reaching more "potential" hobbyists? My point is to try and reach the customer at the beginning with some decent information BEFORE they start.

I agree and I do as much as I can to do that. I am the New Reefers moderator on another board, I am very active in my local club, I help customers while hanging out at the LFS that I like.

The best place for them to start would be by getting involved in a local club first and meeting people who are involved in the hobby and do care about the animals and the impact we make on the industry and the enviroment. The truth is these clubs are not always within reasonable distance, hold limited meetings, and to be honest are sometimes VERY difficult to find. On top of that is the fact that most people like to dive head first into something lol. They'd rather have the instant gratification.

Agreed! I just think that helping Petco isn't a great idea. Get the local Petco to allow you to put up signs promoting online boards and local club meetings might be good, but supporting the 'machine' seems futile and enabling.

Getting back to the original discussion I still believe having some positive impact will spread when measurable success is achieved. Constant negatives will limit the lifecycle of any product, this is a proven fact in all businesses. This is just common sense. Even with a corporation the size of Petco, the potential of there existance still becomes limited at some point.

I see what you are saying, but I think most of the country is more interested in saving a buck than getting good customer service. People know that walmart is icky, but they save money by going there.
There is a 'new' petco in SD with a huge saltwater section that had many people excited that perhaps petco was coming around. It sadly seems that within a month of its opening it is working like almost every other petco.

Maybe this will better explain my reasoning? If not please feel free to post whatever questions you have and we can discuss them point by point.

It does very much, and I thank you for spending the time on it. You and I can agree to disagree, but at least we have both been heard by the other.

Thanks again,

RR

[wds21921]

Good points Lefty. I don't wholeheartedly agree with some of the ideas but I definitely understand your points much better.

Lefty and I weren't planning on anything but a discussion so the comment of "get a room" isn't really necessary. Lefty isn't my type and I serioulsy doubt I'm his type either.

I haven't worked for Petco so your insight is a lot better than mine as to there internal workings, that part I can't debate. I do know that even though the wholesale or quantity buying market itself is hot it will also reach a saturation point. BJ's is a good example. When people found out that they could buy in less qty for still less than average retail prices they beagn to shop elsewhere. Every form of business has a lifecycle and none last forever. Even Petco will eventually reach it's limit.

Part of the problem is the dissemination of information that I alluded to before. People who write books or get on discussion boards that have some form of credentials may mean to offer valuable information but until recently, a lot of the so-called facts that were being offered were merely trial and error experiments at best.

I got into the hobby in the mid 70's actually and the information was horrible at best. I have seen recently though in the last 4 years a lot of work being done on controlled studies that better explain the hows and why's which has lead to better quality of life for the animals as well as longer life spans in a closed enviroment. Hopefully, Petco too is just a part of the growing pain of this hobby?
I think we can both agree that the the hobbyists and the animals would most likely be better off without them.

From some of the postings it sounds as though at least a few of the stores are trying to make an attempt at turning around the companies image. We see the same thing in a lot of the LFS as the business progresses the owner loses interest over time perhaps and the quality of animals and the help go downhill. That was where I was at with the LFS I was working at. I at least managed to get the quality of animlas and help back up, but the business itself had too any factors going against it. Reputation went downhill, large chains opening up catering to the same customers, and lack of interest from the owner. I was faced with at least a few of the same things you would be facing at Petco except that it was not a large chain (3 stores).

Even with that though, I still managed to educate people to understand what it takes to properly care for a tank and keep the animals alive longer than a few weeks lol. Most likely they get at least most of there supplies from one of the two larger chains but I'm pretty sure feww if any of there animals come from either one of them.

[SOMEthinsFISHY]

well thats good news !!